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Old 07-18-2009   #21
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Originally Posted by Nikonfreak View Post
One last point, I've not met many Europeans that want a stronger America, but rather a weaker one.
No, not a weaker one, the sentiment runs more in the direction of a more reasonable one.

Being seen as strong is being seen as a bully.
If you're seen as reasonable, the strength doesn't matter.

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Old 07-20-2009   #22
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No, not a weaker one, the sentiment runs more in the direction of a more reasonable one.

Being seen as strong is being seen as a bully.
If you're seen as reasonable, the strength doesn't matter.

Korman
"reasonable" ...

Reasoning with Germany really helped during WWII didn't it? In fact, historically, the nations that "reasoned" with Hitler ended up being conquered by him.

In the end, strength is what won the war. The strength of the Allies with the United States being the backbone.

You made my point beautifully.

Julio
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Old 07-20-2009   #23
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"reasonable" ...

Reasoning with Germany really helped during WWII didn't it? In fact, historically, the nations that "reasoned" with Hitler ended up being conquered by him.

In the end, strength is what won the war. The strength of the Allies with the United States being the backbone.

You made my point beautifully.

Julio

The Huns, Ceasers, and Kings/Queens of the centuries past British empires would agree whole heartedly. Why reason with people when you can just conquer and force your beliefs on them.
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Old 07-20-2009   #24
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The Huns, Ceasers, and Kings/Queens of the centuries past British empires would agree whole heartedly. Why reason with people when you can just conquer and force your beliefs on them.
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Originally Posted by Nikonfreak View Post
"reasonable" ...

Reasoning with Germany really helped during WWII didn't it? In fact, historically, the nations that "reasoned" with Hitler ended up being conquered by him.

In the end, strength is what won the war. The strength of the Allies with the United States being the backbone.

You made my point beautifully.

Julio
Julio, you missed the 'beautiful point'; it was Germany that wasn't reasoning with anyone, something America has arguably done with its foreign policy in recent times (i.e., Being seen as strong is being seen as a bully.
If you're seen as reasonable, the strength doesn't matter.)
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Old 07-20-2009   #25
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Default Re: Interesting Quotes about America

I'm for reasonable and strong. They aren't mutually exclusive. But you need to be strong, when being reasonable doesn't work. It's basic schoolyard principles. I'm surprised it's so hard to understand. Weak and reasonable isn't the answer to anything.

You'll find that others will be much more reasonable as well if they're worried you're gonna kick their ass if they ain't. ANd vice versa, their unreasonableness will escalate as your strength decreases. Simple. Pure. Truth.
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Old 07-21-2009   #26
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Julio, you missed the 'beautiful point'; it was Germany that wasn't reasoning with anyone, something America has arguably done with its foreign policy in recent times (i.e., Being seen as strong is being seen as a bully.
If you're seen as reasonable, the strength doesn't matter.)
No, I got the point. My point is if Germany wasn't being reasonable, what exactly should the other nations have done to be "reasonable" to Germany?

If the US had been reasonable, there wouldn't have been a Jew left in Europe and all of Europe would be celebrating Oktoberfest.

The difference is that America isn't out annexing land or conquering anyone. We may knock off a dictatorial regime here and there and give people a chance at liberty (a really tragic thing to do as far as liberals go) but I guess it's just one of those terribly unreasonable things we do.

Another one of those terrible things is try to keep rogue regimes from obtaining nuclear weaponry. Again, a horrible thing, but I'd say it's spot on. North Korea is starving it's people but getting a long range nuke is a priority. Same goes for Iran.

As for Russia, our current President is trading military superiority for hamburger sales and giving Russia an open door to anything it wants including the removal of our missile defense systems, and reduction of our capabilities. It's like a Carter nightmare squared.

How reasonable has North Korea been? Iran? China?

Then our dictator in chief sides with Castro and Chavez with respect to the treason of the President of Honduras. Unbelievable. Hey, you know the results of the ballot referendum that never took place were on the computer of the former Honduran President. I wonder if that's the way ACORN works.
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Old 07-21-2009   #27
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Default Re: Interesting Quotes about America

It always interests me how quickly conversations about spiritual matters, and that is where the OP began, soon become all about big guns and power. Perhaps the Taliban / Al-Quida is indeed a part of the American shadow.
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Old 07-21-2009   #28
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It always interests me how quickly conversations about spiritual matters, and that is where the OP began, soon become all about big guns and power. Perhaps the Taliban / Al-Quida is indeed a part of the American shadow.
Just as when it turns to being "reasonable" by allowing tyrants and dictators to run amok, at their liesure and whim, makes me believe that communism and and traitors are also part of the American shadow.
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Old 07-21-2009   #29
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My mistake, only some of the founders were. My quick wiki research shows: "Some of the more prominent Founding Fathers were anti-clerical or vocal about their opposition to organized religion,
Opposition to organized religion is not atheism, I am opposed to organized religion as well
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Old 07-21-2009   #30
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Default Re: Interesting Quotes about America

Excellent post Fran.

Alexis de Tocqueville
Democracy in America, 1835

"Upon my arrival in the United States the religious aspect of the country was the first thing that struck my attention; and the longer I stayed there, the more I perceived the great political consequences resulting from this new state of things.
In France I had almost always seen the spirit of religion and the spirit of freedom marching in opposite directions. But in America I found they were intimately united and that they reigned in common over the same country.

Religion in America...must be regarded as the foremost of the political institutions of that country; for if it does not impart a taste for freedom, it facilitates the use of it. Indeed, it is in this same point of view that the inhabitants of the United States themselves look upon religious belief.

I do not know whether all Americans have a sincere faith in their religion—for who can search the human heart?—But I am certain that they hold it to be indispensable to the maintenance of republican institutions. This opinion is not peculiar to a class of citizens or a party, but it belongs to the whole nation and to every rank of society.

In the United States the sovereign authority is religious,... there is no country in the world where the Christian religion retains a greater influence over the souls of men than in America, and there can be no greater proof of its utility and of its conformity to human nature than that its influence is powerfully felt over the most enlightened and free nation of the earth.

I sought for the key to the greatness and genius of America in her harbors...; in her fertile fields and boundless forests; in her rich mines and vast world commerce; in her public school system and institutions of learning. I sought for it in her democratic Congress and in her matchless Constitution.
Not until I went into the churches of America and heard her pulpits flame with righteousness did I understand the secret of her genius and power.

The Americans combine the notions of Christianity and of liberty so intimately in their minds, that it is impossible to make them conceive the one without the other."


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