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Old 07-18-2009   #11
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Default Re: Interesting Quotes about America

Just a few thoughts come to mind... America is not a country. It is a continent. The USA is "United States of America". The separation of State and Religion only came about in 1948 through the Supreme Court and was derived from writings of Thomas Jefferson of mainly how blocks of religous communities should not be used to garner votes. Such as promising Quakers not to impose taxes on wheat to gain a block vote. There is no American flag...again the Stars and Stripes is the flag of the United States. Heres a few more..."In God We Trust" and "One Nation Under God".
Mechoption, you could not be more wrong. People came to this land to escape religous prosecution and worship in a free society. End of rant!
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Old 07-18-2009   #12
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In the "USA" vernacular, America is often used interchangeably with US, USA, "the States". (e.g. "the American flag") If you want to be nit-picky, North America is a continent as is South America, but this is a point that is trivial to the discussion.

The First Amendment was ratified in 1791. Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. As you can see, the words "separation of church and state" does not appear in that Amendment, but that is what people derive this concept from.

Quoted from wiki here:

The modern concept often credited to the writings of English philosopher
, the phrase separation of church and state is generally traced to the letter written by
in 1802 to the
, in which he referred to the
as creating a "wall of separation" between church and state. [3] The phrase was then quoted by the
first in 1878,[4] and then in a series of cases starting in 1948.[5] This led to increased popular and political discussion of the concept.

But as we all know, or may not know, Jesus was even smarter than Thomas Jefferson when he simply said "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's roughly 2000 years ago.

...
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Old 07-18-2009   #13
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What a great day it would be if we could round up all the bible thumpers, put their asses on a rocket and blast them off to the moon.
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Old 07-18-2009   #14
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Originally Posted by Rick Waldroup View Post
What a great day it would be if we could round up all the bible thumpers, put their asses on a rocket and blast them off to the moon.
That's exactly what the English, the Germans, the Dutch, the French and many other civilised countries did a few hundred years ago, when that new continent mostly empty and far away called America was discovered.

And guess what? They're still there.

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Old 07-18-2009   #15
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Originally Posted by korman View Post
That's exactly what the English, the Germans, the Dutch, the French and many other civilised countries did a few hundred years ago, when that new continent mostly empty and far away called America was discovered.

And guess what? They're still there.

Korman
Thanks for raining on my parade....

Well, a guy can dream, can't he?
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Old 07-18-2009   #16
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Originally Posted by Nikonfreak View Post
Are you joking? The founders were not atheists by any stretch of the imagination. Where on earth did you get such a rediculous notion like that.
My mistake, only some of the founders were. My quick wiki research shows: "Some of the more prominent Founding Fathers were anti-clerical or vocal about their opposition to organized religion, such as Thomas Jefferson (who created the "Jefferson Bible"), and Benjamin Franklin. Several of the Founding Fathers considered themselves to be deists or held beliefs very similar to that of deists."

Jefferson had this to say about religion and politics:
December 6, 1813 "History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government"
March 17, 1814 "In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own."

And Bush Sr. had this to say about atheists:
"No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God." - apparently Jefferson was right, the priest-ridden people of America are struggling to maintain a free civil government?
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Old 07-18-2009   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Waldroup View Post
What a great day it would be if we could round up all the bible thumpers, put their asses on a rocket and blast them off to the moon.
Thanks for your valuable contribution. Again, how enlightening.

Korman, Europe gathered up all the "bible thumpers" and sent them off to America? Is that what you learned in History class?

Mechoption:
America built on atheism. Boy that just proves that if you keep telling yourself something, eventually you start believing it. Strange. But not even remotely accurate. "Anti-clerical" at that point in time was to be against the abuses of the various churches, Church of England, etc, that did not allow freedom of religion. Anti-clerical is in no way synonymous with atheist. Anti'clerical at that time would be more consistent with anti-National religion more likely.
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Old 07-18-2009   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patterfr View Post
Mechoption:
America built on atheism. Boy that just proves that if you keep telling yourself something, eventually you start believing it. Strange. But not even remotely accurate. "Anti-clerical" at that point in time was to be against the abuses of the various churches, Church of England, etc, that did not allow freedom of religion. Anti-clerical is in no way synonymous with atheist. Anti'clerical at that time would be more consistent with anti-National religion more likely.
We'll have to agree to disagree. At that point in time anyone suggesting they were athiest would have been sentenced to death, possibly literally. Anti-clerical at that time would be more consistent with atheism today.

Isn't "National religion" a paradox in a secular society
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Old 07-18-2009   #19
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Korman, Europe gathered up all the "bible thumpers" and sent them off to America? Is that what you learned in History class?
That's perhaps a little exaggerating, but when you look at your own history books, you find that there were basically four reasons for people to leave for America before 1900:
  • Get rich - be a loser in Europe, become a king in America. Those people who were successful in Europe usually stayed here. In this groups you can include various ex-captains and nobles who got assigned tracts of land by their ruler on condition they can take it and keep it. On the whole, that group was rather small in the beginning and often not very successful.
  • People standing up for their religion by running away. Those came quite early and here you'll find the pilgrim fathers and quite a few English protestants, the Huguenots and various other religious fringe groups. As people who don't care much about religion or aren't vocal about their beliefs aren't usually persecuted, summing them up as bible-thumpers is a quite good approximation.
  • Hunger - better to eat in America than starve at home. That came a little later and brought many Irish, Polish, Italian, German and whatever other nationalities.
  • Slavery and deportation. I guess that applies more to African than to Europeans immigrants. And this only started once the first waves of immigrants where settled enough to require more cheap labour.

Of those groups, the religious motivated immigrants were most interested in creating segregated communities and to keep out everybody not matching their view of the world, thus keeping the spirit alive.


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Old 07-18-2009   #20
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Well, korman, at least you have some of the history correct.

There were a few of the founders that were, indeed, skeptical of religion and that's why they decided that the United States Constitution should have the establishment clause in that government could not establish a national religion.

Freedom of religion is not the same thing as freedom from religion or absence of religion.

Those same immigrants were some of the most mistreated, and most discriminated against. Funny how they've managed to move past those things to consider themselves Americans. Not Polish-American, Jewish-American, etc... Just American. Hyphenated Americanism is itself segregation is it not?

One last point, I've not met many Europeans that want a stronger America, but rather a weaker one. People left the persecution and corruption of Europe seeking personal and economic liberty and they found it in America.


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