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Old 02-11-2009   #21
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Or even better, why did not Bush appoint you?

Mel
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Old 02-11-2009   #22
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How typical of a Right winger to label every one who disagrees or worse, asks for their plan as a liberal. Well, I will certainly admit that I am more to the left than you but then again, Genghis Khan was probably a liberal also.

I will agree with several of your plan. Surprised? I also agree to cut spending---a lot---but the rub is where will the spending cuts do the most good. Do we cut entitlements to pay more unemployment? Do we cut schools or do we cut roads and highways. Where do we cut?

I will also agree that we underwrite selected projects but which ones? It is easy to say cut but where? Who do you propose to be the new czar to be for the investment expertise? Perhaps someone who got the expertise in the past several years such as Bernie Madoff?

Stimulus checks? They certainly worked the last time.

Whose taxes do you propose cutting? Middle class, lower class, those over $250,000 per year, corporate, estate, gasoline.

So many questions, so many naysayers with no real plans except to cut taxes, get a czar, raise unemployment and generalized spending cuts. Perhaps the military? I am sure that in your mind, you have it all worked out and we unwashed (dare I say) Liberals need to supply all the details so you can rip them apart. I just wish that your civility and detailing of your solution matched your photographic skills.

With that whine, I will let all you Chicken Littles decry the death of the Country while offering nothing but specious plans. I do not understand why the Messiah does not call on you to be the czar of the Republic.

Mel
You pretty much nailed our problem with this package. While the spending may be going to worthwhile projects, the majority aren't projects that will stimulate the economy. The rational that putting money into birth control will somehow save us is simply beyond me. aaaannnnd like I said before: a lot of this will only create temporary, government established jobs. They will have to keep on funding more and more to keep things at the same level.

Why can't we have a civilized discussion without getting all pissy? That comment meant for all of us.
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Old 02-12-2009   #23
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Want to see where your local government wants to spend that stimulus?

Just click on your state to see
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Old 02-12-2009   #24
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More than once I've heard the answer is getting the credit markets open again. Extend credit! Get now, pay later! Isn't this the rationale that got us in this fix to start with? Consuming today on tomorrow's value didn't work. Why will a stimulus package that essentially does just this help?
As much as I hate the idea of borrowing MORE, our system is designed around it today. Even back in the "pioneer" days, credit was an important part of setting up a new homestead and farm. People simply don't have the resources to put into a single large investment that will pay back over time. Banks have those resources.

Extend that to a larger model and businesses start coming into play. My father-in-law sold a very successful plating company in Phoenix a number of years ago. He was a saver. He had at least $5M in the bank as his own credit line but also had banks coming to HIM to lend money. He only borrowed and expanded during recessions after he was profitable. But it took years to get to that level and during that time, he had to do without to reach that comfort level.

Most businesses are unwilling to do that. Or shareholders simply won't let them. Debt is seen as a necessary evil. While I agree that it can be considered that, I think we've taken it to an extreme that needs to be pulled back to a more realistic level.
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Old 02-12-2009   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jhawk1000 View Post
How typical of a Right winger to label every one who disagrees or worse, asks for their plan as a liberal. Well, I will certainly admit that I am more to the left than you but then again, Genghis Khan was probably a liberal also.

I will agree with several of your plan. Surprised? I also agree to cut spending---a lot---but the rub is where will the spending cuts do the most good. Do we cut entitlements to pay more unemployment? Do we cut schools or do we cut roads and highways. Where do we cut?

I will also agree that we underwrite selected projects but which ones? It is easy to say cut but where? Who do you propose to be the new czar to be for the investment expertise? Perhaps someone who got the expertise in the past several years such as Bernie Madoff?

Stimulus checks? They certainly worked the last time.

Whose taxes do you propose cutting? Middle class, lower class, those over $250,000 per year, corporate, estate, gasoline.

So many questions, so many naysayers with no real plans except to cut taxes, get a czar, raise unemployment and generalized spending cuts. Perhaps the military? I am sure that in your mind, you have it all worked out and we unwashed (dare I say) Liberals need to supply all the details so you can rip them apart. I just wish that your civility and detailing of your solution matched your photographic skills.

With that whine, I will let all you Chicken Littles decry the death of the Country while offering nothing but specious plans. I do not understand why the Messiah does not call on you to be the czar of the Republic.

Mel
I find it sad and disappointing that you come into a conversation spewing hate and then blame me for responding. I guess I shouldn't be surprised. You've done enough of it in the past.
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Old 02-12-2009   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brian.austin View Post
As much as I hate the idea of borrowing MORE, our system is designed around it today. Even back in the "pioneer" days, credit was an important part of setting up a new homestead and farm. People simply don't have the resources to put into a single large investment that will pay back over time. Banks have those resources.

Extend that to a larger model and businesses start coming into play. My father-in-law sold a very successful plating company in Phoenix a number of years ago. He was a saver. He had at least $5M in the bank as his own credit line but also had banks coming to HIM to lend money. He only borrowed and expanded during recessions after he was profitable. But it took years to get to that level and during that time, he had to do without to reach that comfort level.

Most businesses are unwilling to do that. Or shareholders simply won't let them. Debt is seen as a necessary evil. While I agree that it can be considered that, I think we've taken it to an extreme that needs to be pulled back to a more realistic level.

Thing is, are we near/at/past the point of no return. Seems from the top to the bottom that everyone is in debt. Yet the government is throwing money around and wants us to throw it around too. Kinda hard to do, when you are doing your best to save for your own personal hardship that is 1 bad day away.

I mean, its close to 2 million jobs lost in the last year. People are scared. The smart ones arent going to extend themselves too far, but thats what the government wants people to do. The govt could give a gazillion dollars to the banks for loans, but except in the case of refinancing to get a lower rate, who is going to taske a chance that puts them at great financial risk. I could go out and get a new car, and loans for "stuff", but when you cant be sure what tomorrow brings you dont do that.

I hated both stimulus and bailouts. I hate this one a bit less, but I still dislike an extral trillion in national debt. I just have some hope that with the money going to services, that it may help some. But I dont believe it will be the best bang for the buck. It will take more then tossed around money to fix the economy. We will be limping along for probably a few years as the planet continues to be in a recession (even spain just admitted they are in one too)
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Old 02-12-2009   #27
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The biggest issue that I can see is the line between borrowing for investment and borrowing for desires has blurred.

I can buy a house today for less than $100K. Two years ago, that same house was almost $200K and I suspect it will go back up to that within 4-5 years. I'm okay sitting on it, renting it out, and waiting for that price point to make my money. And I'm okay borrowing to make that happen.

The banks, though, are scared. They'll loan to me for it but I have to jump through some very tall hoops to get it. Enough where it's just not worth my time and money right now.

What's really sad, though, is I can pull together 4-5 credit cards and use THOSE to borrow the money immediately. I have that borrowing power sitting mere millimeters from my butt right now. Yet a bank won't do it at those same terms.

Some good news from January, I see. Retail spending was up 1% and jobless claims were down. I think it's a burp in the downturn personally but it's still a bit of brighter news. Some idiot news commentator was talking how it's the end of the recession this morning. I wanted to reach through the radio and strangle him. Sadly, he didn't listen to me yelling back at him.
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Old 02-12-2009   #28
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Funny thing about retail sales being up that blip. Last night, for the heck of it I went to my local mall. The Ritz Camera store had closed up. First time I think ive ever been in a mall without one of those. Theyre like Spencers. Ritz and Spencers decide where they want a store and a mall pops up around them.

Another victim of the economy (and online buying).
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Old 02-12-2009   #29
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Funny thing about retail sales being up that blip. Last night, for the heck of it I went to my local mall. The Ritz Camera store had closed up. First time I think ive ever been in a mall without one of those. Theyre like Spencers. Ritz and Spencers decide where they want a store and a mall pops up around them.

Another victim of the economy (and online buying).
Ritz is all over the place so it wouldn't really surprise me to start seeing slower stores closing. I think we'll see a lot of consolidation over the next year with a variety of stores.

I did my part this week. Bought a new Epson R1900 and my stupid vacuum died. Admittedly, I wouldn't have bought the Epson if I had known the vacuum was dying. Oh, well. I bought the vacuum at Sears (great prices on Dysons right now) but made sure that I went to a local photo store for the printer. I'm making a point of supporting local businesses whenever I can right now.
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Old 02-12-2009   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brian.austin View Post
The biggest issue that I can see is the line between borrowing for investment and borrowing for desires has blurred.

I can buy a house today for less than $100K. Two years ago, that same house was almost $200K and I suspect it will go back up to that within 4-5 years. I'm okay sitting on it, renting it out, and waiting for that price point to make my money. And I'm okay borrowing to make that happen.

The banks, though, are scared. They'll loan to me for it but I have to jump through some very tall hoops to get it. Enough where it's just not worth my time and money right now.

What's really sad, though, is I can pull together 4-5 credit cards and use THOSE to borrow the money immediately. I have that borrowing power sitting mere millimeters from my butt right now. Yet a bank won't do it at those same terms.

Some good news from January, I see. Retail spending was up 1% and jobless claims were down. I think it's a burp in the downturn personally but it's still a bit of brighter news. Some idiot news commentator was talking how it's the end of the recession this morning. I wanted to reach through the radio and strangle him. Sadly, he didn't listen to me yelling back at him.

I was just reading on CNN how home values are at their lowest and interest rates are very low as well. Perfect time for people to buy a home, but again so many are afraid to take the risk.


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