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Old 09-09-2008   #11
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Default Re: Phase One counters Hasselblad :D

Quote:
Originally Posted by HuBBaTheMan View Post
And the used market is for the pro who doesnt have the client base to buy or lease a new back or the "advanced" amateur who wants to try digital medium format.
It's interesting how much this market can develop with Sony (and presumably Canon soon) offering a 20+mpx 35mm camera for under $4000. Sony and Canon can subsidize an awful lot of engineering work to tame noise, even with the smaller size sensor.

A few years back American Photo did a shootout between the old 1D Mk2 and a medium format back. It was pretty close with the medium format back coming out ahead because it doesn't use any sort of anti-aliasing filter over the sensor. Fine detail was much better, at the cost of having to fix moire issues in some of the images.

different tools, different workflows, different problems...
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Old 09-10-2008   #12
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Default Re: Phase One counters Hasselblad :D

Well there is one limitation to the small format that have been around since well.. its creation and it havent gone away since there are no technological solution to it and that is diffraction. Without going into too much detail as to what it is the bottom line is that with small format (35mm or lower) diffraction becomes a real problem. Adding to the resolution to that format only works as long as you shoot almost wide open which isn't exactly the most common setting for me. I often shoot at f8-f11 or even up to f20-f32 if its product shots, and at these apertures diffraction can become a real problem.

Now the solution to this is to get better lenses with better optical qualities, but when not even a L lens is good enough, you are walking into very difficult areas pricewise. Its a little bit like i think it's Nikon who said that the MP race is useless now because we have hit the wall when it comes to small format optics. To make them better right now to allow for full usage of a high resolution sensor brings a manifacturing cost which puts them way out of pricerange for most all normal users and many pro's aswell.

Now.. take medium format, bigger sensors yes, but foremost bigger lenses and bigger impact from diffraction- Obviously as its an optical phenomenon diffraction exists there aswell but its much less evident even at higher apertures compared to small format.

So the situation will probably be, spend $20000 on optics for small format to be able to use the 25MP sensor or spend $20000 on a medium format system

This is actually the main reason now i opted to go with a medium format digital system rather than drooling over the new 5D MK II / 50D. Though i am still making my climb in the corporate world so i am going for a used medium format system

Plus.. its so much more fun with medium format. Its my personal opinion but hey each to his own.

Bottom line is, you can technically put a 50MP sensor (several manifacturers have announced they have them in research) on a small format body, but it wont give you medium format in sharpness and detail clarity. And AA filters have some with it, but its actually a optical limitation, not software.
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Old 09-10-2008   #13
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Default Re: Phase One counters Hasselblad :D

I thing companies like RED will turn these markets inside out.
We need innovators, not corporate lackeys making our new toys!!!
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Old 09-10-2008   #14
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Default Re: Phase One counters Hasselblad :D

Well Red is definately interesting. It remains to be seen how effective they will be in a photographic environment or if they will start battling with still cameras aswell.

Biggest issue for medium format right now for a new actor to enter the market is that the market itself is very very very small compared to say small format and most of the targets on that market are already comitted with a lot of money.

And if you are dedicated to mamiya, leaf, hasselblad and have many tens of thousand of dollars devoted to that then throwing it all away isn't exactly done overnight.

Always remember that it's the photographer making the image, not the camera taking it. To give an absolute example of this, i just shot a fashion series for a upcoming art book on a holga which turned out quite nice
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Old 09-11-2008   #15
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Default Re: Phase One counters Hasselblad :D

Quote:
Originally Posted by HuBBaTheMan View Post
Well Red is definately interesting. It remains to be seen how effective they will be in a photographic environment or if they will start battling with still cameras aswell.
Here's a take from the author of DV Rebel's Guide. RED addresses dSLR market

He mentions one of the big knocks against RED: an inability to ship on time. I remember when the RED was first announced back three(?) NABs ago. If it had been available then, it would have changed the world. Of course, the competition kept working in the interim, so it's been a popular product, but it didn't crush the competition. And the pro video market was ripe for a newcomer to take over. So figure RED won't actually have this dSLR-killer ready for at least another five years. They need to get Scarlet out the door first.

And I wouldn't worry about RED doing anything in the medium-format market. Check out this sensor size comparison from the same site. Sensor sizes compared. The current RED camera has a sensor that's about the size of an APS-C sensor and they don't own their won fab, so it's going to be hard to see them moving up to medium format territory.
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Old 09-11-2008   #16
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Default Re: Phase One counters Hasselblad :D

Yes i think you are correct. There are a lot of hype surrounding the Red cameras and they all forget a few key items.

1) If you are already comitted to a brand in medium format high end digital, you wont switch anytime soon. It's a really really really big investment to change. And if you rent then you will just rent whatever you want anyway, including Red cameras

2) Red are innovative sure.. but not alone. Actually found this today A-cam dII - The camera loves you | A-cam dII | Products | Ikonoskop a swedish camera that does pretty much the same thing. around 7000 euros when it's released according to the site.

Red feels more and more like a lot of hype and marketing which MAY bring us the next revolution. If you excuse me i'll hold onto my Mamiyas for a while longer
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Old 10-09-2008   #17
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Default Re: Phase One counters Hasselblad :D

Cannon and Nikon both should have embraced some sort of "modularity" in their sensors....I mean, they had to see that a new innovation would come along every 1 or 2 years....and their solutions force the purchase of an entire new body to take advantage of a little more light sensitivity or a slightly faster frame rate....

If the "guts" of the Canon and Nikon offerings had some sort of swappable components they could go a long way to saving the "used" market which seems to be almost disappearing in the digital age.

Wouldn't it make alot more sense to replace a "sensor/shutter" package in your camera to repair it or bring it up to date? (or even have specialized IR or UV sensors for creative photography?) Rather than the waste of replacing the entire body for just a few features?
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Old 10-09-2008   #18
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Default Re: Phase One counters Hasselblad :D

Would it? Let's run the numbers.

A Canon EOS-1v (a film body), a professional level film camera, can be purchased for $1700 at B&H brand new. The digital equivalent of that, the 1dsMk3, can be bought for $7500. So, the cost of the digital sensor inside is about $5800, or about 75% of the cost of the camera. How much can you really save by just changing out the sensor? There's not a lot of cost in the body relative to the cost of the sensor. In addition, you give up any advances in autofocus and weather-sealing, etc.

In addition, most people would choose to buy the whole camera rather than upgrade an "old" camera, so the cost of an upgrade kit would be higher relative to the cost of the whole package together because the market for upgrades would be a lot smaller.

I think the computer equivalent would be the market for Mac processor upgrades. Yes, you can save a little money by buying a processor upgrade for your machine, but can you justify it? The market for those upgrades is so low that the cost of an upgrade isn't magnitudes less than a whole new machine, plus a brand new machine carries a whole host of other improvements that the new processor alone doesn't give you.

Now, in the medium format business you have an entirely different dynamic. But comparing a medium format camera to a dSLR is a little like comparing an AS/400 to a Mac.
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Old 10-09-2008   #19
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Default Re: Phase One counters Hasselblad :D

hah. matthew, and that comparison works also when comparing ease of use

And what is this about the used market disappearing? It's alive and thriving, and even more so now it seems since for some reason everyone wants to change and upgrade to the latest model whenever one is released. This ofcourse is useless since a new model wont make you take better images, just the same images a bit faster and more efficient But when 50D was introduced, all of a sudden 40D's are flooding the used market. Stupid in my book but thats how some people react to it.

The only used market hwoever which is semi-dead is the digital back market. But that is also changing now when pretty much all manifacturers have dropped their trade-in programs. This was a efficient method of keeping used old backs off the market to compete with the new ones for customers. But now some manifacturers (at least Phase & Hasselblad) think the price has dropped so far it's no longer a threat to them so they are not offering the same kind of trade-in deals like they did before.

This ofcourse means that it will now be beneficial to sell your old digital back before getting a new one unless you want to keep it as a backup. Which is good news for the rest of us
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Old 01-23-2009   #20
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Default Re: Phase One counters Hasselblad :D

Finally i am a happy owner for Hasselblad H3D, my first ever medium format.
Maybe it is not the top best digital MF, and i know it is a closed system but hey, i even never dream to own film MF, or even H3D 22/31, so with my new H3DII 39mp i can't be happiest, and it is coming with HC 2.8/80mm ...... all that with the price of:


$20800


I just paid about 60 or 70% of the price, and the rest is monthly payment for about 4-5 months, is there any better deal/offer?


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