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Old 05-20-2008   #71
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Default Re: 24/7 hard drives

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Originally Posted by guyfromtor View Post
And you guys never had a tape fail on you?

I have this happen to me twice where everything gets backed up with no errors. Go to do a restore and it can't read the tape.
Verify catches most of it. Periodic testing (ie selective restores to alternate locations) spot checks the verify. And running daily backups is a good strategy.
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Old 05-21-2008   #72
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Default Re: 24/7 hard drives

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Originally Posted by brian.austin View Post
Verify catches most of it. Periodic testing (ie selective restores to alternate locations) spot checks the verify. And running daily backups is a good strategy.


Just to add, verify doesn't stop the tapes from deteriorating. Keep them somewhere safe. We use a service at work to store our tapes. May not be cost effective for the individual, but a small safe may not be. Keep your tapes in there cycle through your backups.
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Old 05-21-2008   #73
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Default Re: 24/7 hard drives

I finally got my Dell 132T LTO-3 tape stacker up and running today. A total of 24 x 400GB tapes installed and it's all running sweet.

I agree that tape can deteriorate but my justification for going with tape backup is that your data is stored across multiple tapes. Disks are just too unstable for archival or long term backup use. Tape has an average of 30 years stable storage. So long as there is hardware around at that time to read LTO tapes then it should be reasonably secure. I'd not gamble on 30 year old disks having the same longevity.
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Old 05-21-2008   #74
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Default Re: 24/7 hard drives

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I finally got my Dell 132T LTO-3 tape stacker up and running today. A total of 24 x 400GB tapes installed and it's all running sweet.

I agree that tape can deteriorate but my justification for going with tape backup is that your data is stored across multiple tapes. Disks are just too unstable for archival or long term backup use. Tape has an average of 30 years stable storage. So long as there is hardware around at that time to read LTO tapes then it should be reasonably secure. I'd not gamble on 30 year old disks having the same longevity.

Agreed, heck, I wouldn't gamble on 3 year old disks! LOL
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Old 05-21-2008   #75
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Default Re: 24/7 hard drives

Well, I guess I'll just stick my big toe in here and add a few items to the forum as I have a little experience in this arena... My first pre computer was a trash 80 and then well those commadores well they were real.....

But to get into this conversation, BluRay isn't proven yet, too new...

CD/DVD's well they aren't a real backup medium because of cd rot and well any certain temperature problem can make the dang thing useless, I've never been a fan of tape, too long to get there and well tape gets eaten all the time, plus the fact that I've had bad luck with them, corruption and all.

HD's don't last forever, mtbf does mean something... Fast HD's fail more often than not, it's just a physical thing....

Starting them up and turning them down of course is going to make them fail faster, but keeping the MB hot in a system may just make the controller card fail instead...

I stick with the RAID HD backup and that's done in multiple drive configurations. I have a RAID-mirrored drive set in the computer that is where the working files are kept, then I just use 2bright or a copy command to automatically back those up to a external sata RAID array, again a mirrored set... Which by the way I then swap the mirrored drive of that set every week with another drive and lock that one away... offsite. This gets alittle expensive with multiple RAID enclosures running to back up all of the data that could be being played with at any one time but this physically gives me 5 HD's that contain the same data, and when one of them fails I replace it....

Don't know who makes the best drive on the planet but I have a few things that stay in my vocabulary from working on a lot of these computers over the years... Maxtor, Samsung, Hitachi, Fujitsu, Toshiba, and deskstar I try to stay clear of... I'm a Seagate type of guy and been happy with the results, not to say I haven't seen a Seagate HD fail but not as much as the other brands... WD, I've shyed away from as of late but could be my luck....

Now the solid state HD product that isn't completely here yet, I'm all ears, as something that has no moving parts you would think would be the holy grail... although please let me know if I'm wrong, always learning don't you know, but I was under the concept that solid state HD's or other words CF cards have a write life, as they can only be written too so many times before they fail, although it's a insanely high rate of writes but I thought there was a issue with that... also I use the CF cards as HD's in radio's and router boxes and they fail all the time... worked just fine for a year and a half and then all of the sudden reprogram it...

Just a few thoughts on this forum thread...

I wish you luck with the tapes and the samsung HD's....
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Old 05-22-2008   #76
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Default Re: 24/7 hard drives

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Well, I guess I'll just stick my big toe in here and add a few items to the forum as I have a little experience in this arena... My first pre computer was a trash 80 and then well those commadores well they were real.....

But to get into this conversation, BluRay isn't proven yet, too new...

CD/DVD's well they aren't a real backup medium because of cd rot and well any certain temperature problem can make the dang thing useless, I've never been a fan of tape, too long to get there and well tape gets eaten all the time, plus the fact that I've had bad luck with them, corruption and all.

HD's don't last forever, mtbf does mean something... Fast HD's fail more often than not, it's just a physical thing....

Starting them up and turning them down of course is going to make them fail faster, but keeping the MB hot in a system may just make the controller card fail instead...

I stick with the RAID HD backup and that's done in multiple drive configurations. I have a RAID-mirrored drive set in the computer that is where the working files are kept, then I just use 2bright or a copy command to automatically back those up to a external sata RAID array, again a mirrored set... Which by the way I then swap the mirrored drive of that set every week with another drive and lock that one away... offsite. This gets alittle expensive with multiple RAID enclosures running to back up all of the data that could be being played with at any one time but this physically gives me 5 HD's that contain the same data, and when one of them fails I replace it....

Don't know who makes the best drive on the planet but I have a few things that stay in my vocabulary from working on a lot of these computers over the years... Maxtor, Samsung, Hitachi, Fujitsu, Toshiba, and deskstar I try to stay clear of... I'm a Seagate type of guy and been happy with the results, not to say I haven't seen a Seagate HD fail but not as much as the other brands... WD, I've shyed away from as of late but could be my luck....

Now the solid state HD product that isn't completely here yet, I'm all ears, as something that has no moving parts you would think would be the holy grail... although please let me know if I'm wrong, always learning don't you know, but I was under the concept that solid state HD's or other words CF cards have a write life, as they can only be written too so many times before they fail, although it's a insanely high rate of writes but I thought there was a issue with that... also I use the CF cards as HD's in radio's and router boxes and they fail all the time... worked just fine for a year and a half and then all of the sudden reprogram it...

Just a few thoughts on this forum thread...

I wish you luck with the tapes and the samsung HD's....

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LOL...TRash 80 and the Commodore 128/64/Vic 20...you just sent me on a short road trip to nostalgia. Those were the not-so-good old days when it took 5 or more minutes for a Commodore 128 with a 1571 Floppy disk drive to load less then 150KB of data. Well, it could have been worse, if one had a Commodore 64 and a 1542 single-sided single density floppy drive. That was my days of using Nibblers and other things...
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Old 05-22-2008   #77
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Default Re: 24/7 hard drives

Thought that was scary.... how about the MC10 by Radio Shack, not much more than a highend calculator by todays standards, but man we thought we were the **** when I got the audio tape player to hook up to it and then when you spent hours writing a program to run on the thing you could actually save the program rather than just loosing it by turing it off... Being that the old MC10 was able to run on 12 volt with some tweaking we thought we were in the next mellinium when we hooked it up in the car and had it figure out mileage, actually we did get it to read the temperature from the temp sender unit with way more invested in other gadgets than the MC10 cost us in the first place.... whoa the frustration when we figured out audio tapes for the computer do the same thing they did for playing music, don't know how many tapes and programs got eaten by that dang tape deck..... Those were the days.... ? So, anyways you kinda see where I'm coming from on backing up images and HD usage.... Do you remember the old Conner HD's, I think they were one of the first to come ut with a after market 300MB HD for the IBM PC's.... Or hows about alot newer but the old Packerd Bell 486's.... OOOHHH and OS2 2.0 the IBM version of Windows that never really was.... Who would have thought that both Apple and MS would have recreated thier OS's using mere Unix code for a base ? (OS10/Leoperd, and VISTA)... Anyways nice to hear someone else know's what the heck I'm talking about when I mention a Commadore 64.... wow you had a 128 , dang...
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Old 05-22-2008   #78
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Default Re: 24/7 hard drives

I hate to admit it but I had an Adam! LOL which was really nothing more than a Colecovision with a keyboard. It used "data" tapes as well, which was nothing more than your average audio tape. I also had a Timex Sinclair, a TI 994a, an Osborne One (one of the first "portable" computers), TRaSh 80, Atari 800, Vic 20 and a C64 (it helps to have a dad that is a Systems Analyst)...Conner HD's wow, you sent me back a few years. LOL I was 11 when I built my first 8088 with a 10MB Conner HD, CGA, with a whooping 512KB of RAM with a Daisy Wheel printer!


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"difficult to survive by becoming professional photographer, it is more profitable to buy secondhand car and do pizza delivery than buy DSRL and shoot weddings." (kenzo D, Dpreview)

-Sig edited b/c someone requested it to done, the fun of was wearing out anyway!!!

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