Ended up being Main Photographer, Need Advice

[iflynething]

My cousin got married this Saturday. We talked in the past about me being a possible second shooter. I found out there was a main photographer which was a friend of the groom (it's always the friend). I asked if I could get to shoot this weeding since it would be a pretty big one and I could build some shots in a "major" wedding for my portfolio. I made sure before shooting there was not a clause in the main photographers contract of having a second shooter - there was not.

The wedding started at 2:30. I got to the church at 1 pm and went right to work at getting shots of the bride and groom getting ready in their separate room, going up and down stairs to capture the progress. The main photographer shows up at around 1:45. The groom was almost dressed but I had already made about 30 shots of the groom and about 40 of the bride. I talk to the photographer and tell him I know you're the paid guy, and I will make sure to stay out of your way, he agreed and that was fine. The daughter of the photographer got there and started shooting the bride - only thing is she was already ready, there wasn't much to shoot of her. This was the first thing that irritated me.

Fast forward to the wedding. It was all going great. We were all moving around - myself, the photographer and his daugher. They were in a bind...his camera was a 1D with a L wide angle lens and her's was a 40D with a Tamron 18-200. They couldn't get the shots. Her lens was slow, and his was too wide. I was prepared and had the 80-200 2.8 and was able to get wonderful shots. The wedding photography went great...or so I thought...

We get to the group shots at the end and a little more than half way through, the main photographer gives out. He asked me if I was going to be at the reception for the cake cutting and such. He talks to the groom (I was able to hear) and says he is too tired and needs to take a break. The groom agrees. I come to find out that the guy apparently had cancer of some sort. While I sympathize with the guy, I cannot refuse the fact that I was annoyed he would book a wedding knowing he might not be able to finish it, since he would get tired. Maybe he didn't know this.

I'm in a bind now though. The groom asked me to come to him after the honeymoon with a disc (with all the images.) to surprise the bride. I don't know how much he was going to pay me, how much the main photographer charged, if he got a deposit or anything like that.

I feel like I should be paid in some way other than just a disc full of images for the groom and a "here you go, print at will." Although I was expecting NOTHING from this, things changed as you can see. One of the bridesmaids came into where I work and I kept it professional, but brought up that I was a little irritated the phtographer left and if she knew anything about it. According to her, the guy said - along with he was tired - that I was doing a better job anyways. I remember him saying something to that effect as he was talking to the groom. I talked with a photographer friend and he said bluntly, the guy probably got pissed off that I was there. If he had a clause in his contract that stated there is absolutly not other photography allowed (like I DO in my contract) I would be pissed too, but he didn't and it was ok'ed by the bride and groom that I second shoot, knowing they not pay me. Anyways, my photgographer friend suggested this:

A) First talk to the photographer and see if he is able to compensate me in some way for having to leave and me take over

B) Talk to the bride and groom and charge an hourly rate of $75-100/hr and either charge for the entire 6 hours I was there, with this price of $450-600 including 150 or so prints

C) Charge for the 4 hours I took over after the photographer left, make $400 and then upload the images to my website and let them print from there, lowering my prices since they are in a bind because the other photographer left.

Do I have any other options? What route would be best. I WILL NOT give a disc of just all the images for $200. I'd rather not make any money than have them print off at Wal-Mart or on their home printer and a reputation go down the drain.

Can anyone give their ideas?

Thanks

~Michael~


I apoligize for the long post, but I need to give all the information so I could get a better idea from everyone

[gjb]

My gut says that you shouldn't make this about money. He's family. Give them the gift of your time and talent; you'll be paid one day down the road.

G

[iflynething]

Originally Posted by gjb

My gut says that you shouldn't make this about money. He's family. Give them the gift of your time and talent; you'll be paid one day down the road.

G

That's what I'm getting as a response from another forum as well....well many other things are said also, but that's what they are saying also.

I'm thinking right now, I'm just going to leave it at the groom saying come see him after the honeymoon and he will take care of me - I'm assuming by compensating me in some way.

The only thing is, I really DO NOT want to give a disc of all images....I HATE doing that. They have full control of where everything is printed and I don't want it to look bad, in the end making me look bad

Thank you for your response

~Michael~

[palakaboy]

Have him buy you lunch and call it a day.

[gjb]

Originally Posted by iflynething

That's what I'm getting as a response from another forum as well....well many other things are said also, but that's what they are saying also.

I'm thinking right now, I'm just going to leave it at the groom saying come see him after the honeymoon and he will take care of me - I'm assuming by compensating me in some way.

The only thing is, I really DO NOT want to give a disc of all images....I HATE doing that. They have full control of where everything is printed and I don't want it to look bad, in the end making me look bad

Thank you for your response

~Michael~

Don't do something that you're going to resent them for later.

If you don't want to give them a disk, don't.

A compromise might be to sit down with them and review the photos you took with the understanding that they pay for printing and processing under your terms. If they can't afford to do it now, you'll keep the images until they do, though a nice gift you could give them would be to print and mount one for them; maybe xmas.

On a side note, you come across as offended (maybe outraged?) that you won't be compensated when you weren't under contract and there seems to be no meeting of the minds between you, the bride and groom, or the contracted photographer. I think you're holding onto this a little too tight. You were a family member who was invited to a wedding that happened to step into an ad-hoc photographer. Demanding compensation after the fact seems icky. This is all IMHO and with all due respect.

Best of luck.

G

[Brewyet]

Originally Posted by gjb

On a side note, you come across as offended (maybe outraged?) that you won't be compensated when you weren't under contract and there seems to be no meeting of the minds between you, the bride and groom, or the contracted photographer. I think you're holding onto this a little too tight. You were a family member who was invited to a wedding that happened to step into an ad-hoc photographer. Demanding compensation after the fact seems icky. This is all IMHO and with all due respect.
G

+1 on G's comment. If I'm reading this correctly, it sounds like you saved the day for your cousin. Did you have any prior agreement about getting paid for your images? If not, I think it'd be kinda "tacky" to ask for money now.

Well I hope this helps a little. Post some photos when you get time. Thanks.....Chris

[korman]

Originally Posted by iflynething

The only thing is, I really DO NOT want to give a disc of all images....I HATE doing that.

Give him the disk with all the pictures straight out of the camera ...
... all the pictures you feel good enough to hand out
... straight out of the camera after they were corrected and processed to look right.

What I mean by that is, what the groom thinks all pictures means isn't necessarily match your concept of all pictures. He might have no clue about the usual selection and post-processing cycle before the customer even sees the results. The all he means could be well understood as: all pictures you would put on a contact sheet to present the client, after the usual first processing.

That should satisfy both sides. Just make sure to rename the picture so that there are no numbering gaps between pictures.

About getting paid, if you didn't have a contact before and were willing to do it for free, I wouldn't bother with the hassles. And often people are quite generous on their own if they feel the need to make it up to you.

Korman

[Padre]

I agree you should give it up for free and add the ones you like to your portfolio. If you make it about money now you might stir up more of a hornets nest than you realize.

[swampler]

I have to agree with the others. You asked to take the shots for your portfolio. They did NOT ask you to take the photos. Let them have the shots you feel worthy and use the shots for your portfolio. Seems like a win-win to me.

[littlegal]

Two thoughts here:

First of all, your word is your bond.....you are getting good port stuff and you already said you were doing it free. If you charge now, you are gonna look like the bad guy. Consider your port images payment enough. You had a great opportunity to gain some really great experience.
(I worked as a free apprentice for months before I went out on my own).

2ndly-I feel bad for the first photog. Dude, he's got cancer. I applaud him for even getting out there and trying to get the job done. I have people that sometimes book 2 years out, normally about a year out. Who's to say I won't get cancer between now and two years from now? At least the dude showed up and tried. When he saw you were doing fine, or better than fine, HE ASKED if he could leave, and was granted permission to do so. Had he been told no, I'm sure the guy would have plugged away at doing the best he could. Show pity. Cancer is something that can hit anyone....

[iflynething]

Sorry for taking so long. I wasn't getting an e-mail to let me know I was getting more responses...Let's catch up:

Originally Posted by gjb

Don't do something that you're going to resent them for later.

If you don't want to give them a disk, don't.

A compromise might be to sit down with them and review the photos you took with the understanding that they pay for printing and processing under your terms. If they can't afford to do it now, you'll keep the images until they do, though a nice gift you could give them would be to print and mount one for them; maybe xmas.



Best of luck.

G

Thanks for your comments. This is a wonderful idea! Even if they print images (that they pick out after looking), then I may STILL get a big 11x14 (big for me) and frame it for them as a Christmas gift.

Thanks!

Originally Posted by Brewyet

+1 on G's comment. If I'm reading this correctly, it sounds like you saved the day for your cousin. Did you have any prior agreement about getting paid for your images? If not, I think it'd be kinda "tacky" to ask for money now.

Well I hope this helps a little. Post some photos when you get time. Thanks.....Chris

There was nothing prior to the wedding about getting paid. Before the groom pulled me aside and said see him after they got back, there was going to be no money exchange at all. I will try and get some picture uploaded when I can!

Originally Posted by korman

Give him the disk with all the pictures straight out of the camera ...
... all the pictures you feel good enough to hand out
... straight out of the camera after they were corrected and processed to look right.

What I mean by that is, what the groom thinks all pictures means isn't necessarily match your concept of all pictures. He might have no clue about the usual selection and post-processing cycle before the customer even sees the results. The all he means could be well understood as: all pictures you would put on a contact sheet to present the client, after the usual first processing.

That should satisfy both sides. Just make sure to rename the picture so that there are no numbering gaps between pictures.

About getting paid, if you didn't have a contact before and were willing to do it for free, I wouldn't bother with the hassles. And often people are quite generous on their own if they feel the need to make it up to you.

Korman

You make a very good point. Right now, after everyone's comments, I don't really see it worth a hassle to worry about the money! Plus, like you said, he doesn't know what I had pictures of and don't have pictures of. He can't ever miss what he never saw.

Originally Posted by littlegal

Two thoughts here:

First of all, your word is your bond.....you are getting good port stuff and you already said you were doing it free. If you charge now, you are gonna look like the bad guy. Consider your port images payment enough. You had a great opportunity to gain some really great experience.
(I worked as a free apprentice for months before I went out on my own).

2ndly-I feel bad for the first photog. Dude, he's got cancer. I applaud him for even getting out there and trying to get the job done. I have people that sometimes book 2 years out, normally about a year out. Who's to say I won't get cancer between now and two years from now? At least the dude showed up and tried. When he saw you were doing fine, or better than fine, HE ASKED if he could leave, and was granted permission to do so. Had he been told no, I'm sure the guy would have plugged away at doing the best he could. Show pity. Cancer is something that can hit anyone....

I did get some great experience. In fact, I requested to shoot this wedding no matter if I was the main or second photographer because I knew it would be a "bigger" one that I have shot in the past. I do feel bad for the other guy. In the beginning, I didn't know he had cancer. I heard he had a rough night - I'm assuming having to do with the cancer, I'm not actually sure. I also applaud him after the fact of knowing he had cancer for actually showing up and staying as long as he did.

I'm going to wait for them to get home from the honeymoon and just go to their house (not out of my way). I'll go through the pictures and pick about 200, maybe less of the best ones and not let him know about the other ones. I could suggest maybe one 4x6 of each to go in an album (or maybe even surprise them buy buying an album and doing that part on my own without them knowing) and then give me maybe 10-15 5x7 or 8x10 enlargements for framing around the house or some wallets to give to other family members.

Thanks again everyone for your comments and ideas, I really appreciate the insight

~Michael~

[iflynething]

1)


2) It was a Cinderella Themed wedding


3)


4)


5) There's the other photographer in the middle with his Canon. I thought about editing him out, but I think it's growing on me


6) Probably one of my favorite shots


7) The brides twin daughter holding the oldest daughter





9) Looks blurry due to a 1/30 sec shutter speed using flash


10)


11 )


12)


13) This image started with a lady in front of 8 images. I composited them together and cloned her out in the process. I like the end result but hated the lighting in this room


14)


I'm sure some of you may see these pictures and wonder what all the fuss is about. I will agree that they are not up to par with some of the work I have seen here, but I"m not into the heavy processing and getting the artistic look. I simply shoot what I can in camera first then make WB and exposure, etc adjustments later, but not much adjusting. Even though they're not that fancy, I am happy with them. All I can hope for is that the bride and groom feel the same way!

~Michael~

[maloney]

I like 13, but I don't agree on 6 about the favourite shot, she looks even bigger on this picture.

What's it with the gun in church on 1...?

[korman]

Just a few comments:

#8: I like this picture best, the bride looks radiant and happy.

#3: The bride's poses is very unflattering to her bent over this way. I guess, instead of bending down having her crouch to hug the children would have been far better.

#10: The picture looks too dark and with too much green (on my non-calibrated monitor and compared to your other pictures). Perhaps redoing the white balance will help.

#11 and #13: Wedding receptions shouldn't be allowed to be held in gym halls. On #13 my initial reaction was: Far too short for a hoop.

If you ever do a Trash-the-Dress session with the bride, make sure you get a Magic Johnson type image of her doing a slam dunk with the bride bouquet in her dress. #13 kind of begs for that.

Korman

[swampler]

Originally Posted by maloney

What's it with the gun in church on 1...?

Ever heard of a shotgun wedding? I guess it's a US thing, but follow the link for an explanation and I think it'll make sense.

[maloney]

cheers swampler. didnt know that. i havent seen a shotgun in switzerland in church yet... you're some crazy folk....

[iflynething]

Originally Posted by maloney

I like 13, but I don't agree on 6 about the favourite shot, she looks even bigger on this picture.

What's it with the gun in church on 1...?

It's my favorite shot becuase of the DOF. Not until you said something did I notice she looked even bigger. Could I "liquify" on CS4 to possibly help?

Originally Posted by korman

Just a few comments:

#8: I like this picture best, the bride looks radiant and happy.

#3: The bride's poses is very unflattering to her bent over this way. I guess, instead of bending down having her crouch to hug the children would have been far better.

#10: The picture looks too dark and with too much green (on my non-calibrated monitor and compared to your other pictures). Perhaps redoing the white balance will help.

#11 and #13: Wedding receptions shouldn't be allowed to be held in gym halls. On #13 my initial reaction was: Far too short for a hoop.

If you ever do a Trash-the-Dress session with the bride, make sure you get a Magic Johnson type image of her doing a slam dunk with the bride bouquet in her dress. #13 kind of begs for that.

Korman

Thanks for your comments. I saw that it was a little green. I will mess with the white balance and brighten it up some! Thanks for pointing that out. I hated the venue of the reception. They wanted to make it simple and just have the reception on this place since it was connected to the church already, and the guests didn't have far to go. It might also have to do with just staying where her and her family goes to church and also where her dad and late mother went.

I will keep in mind for a larger bride to kneel down instead of leaning over. She does look bigger as the picture was taken. I think she will like it was with her girls.

What do you mean by the slam dunk thing? Not sure if you're kidding or not but sound cool.

Originally Posted by swampler

Ever heard of a shotgun wedding? I guess it's a US thing, but follow the link for an explanation and I think it'll make sense.

As for the shotgun, it was just a joke. Nothing to do with a forced marriage like the link you provided. It was just because the father was letting his daughter go and just some comical relief.

Would 14 work good as something to go in the newspaper as their announcement? I'm not sure how newspapers are printed and if they are usually under/overexposed or anything.

There are more in my Flikr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/3135797...7621965599807/

[swampler]

Originally Posted by iflynething

As for the shotgun, it was just a joke. Nothing to do with a forced marriage like the link you provided. It was just because the father was letting his daughter go and just some comical relief.

I assumed it was a joke and only provided that link to give the history of why there was a shotgun there. I hope I didn't offend as I certainly didn't mean to imply that this particular wedding was forced. I should have made that clear when I posted the link.

[iflynething]

Oh I knew you didn't mean anything by it.

I'm gonna have to check on my e-mail updates on this forum, I'm not getting any....

Well here is an update

I got in contact with the groom and I made a slideshow for them

YouTube - Sam and Stephanie Wedding Slideshow

YouTube - Sam and Stephanie Wedding Slideshow

I talked to him over the phone a couple of times and he asked what he owed me. I simply told him I was going to be the second shooter and that's it and I was going to do it for free in the first place so if he wanted to pay me, he could. If not, it was up to him and my cousin.

I showed them the slideshow first so they could get an idea of pictures in store. The bride cried the entire slideshow and I may have even seen the groom doing the same thing.

Anyways, I showed them some of the pictures and they talked and gave me what ended up being $140....and in the words of Billy Mays (R.I.P): "But wait, there's more..."

I might be shooting a wedding for the grooms' nephew's wedding in a couple of months. He said they could contact me and I could give more details to his nephew.

Just thought I would give an update. Thank you all for your ideas

~Michael~

[Padre]

This ended in a win win for everyone, your thoughtfulness and patience paid off.