Low light Wedding woes!

[Digiphotoworks]

Hello everybody, looking for some post wedding advice please.

Shot a Wedding last weekend, the weather was against me and it rained all day so light was not good.

The ceremony and subsequent activities were all held in a function room with natural light from a bank of windows along one side and normal room lighting.

I was shooting with a Nikon D200 and SB600 flash.

I was disappointed with the number of shots that were blurred. I had the ISO up at 1600 much of the time and was using a 50mm 1.8 and an 18-200mm VR 3.5-5.6, yet still the D200 struggled to get sensible shutter speeds, thus the subjects movements were captured makng for rather blurred images.

It's all very well opening up the aperture, which with the 50mm 1.8 generally ensures enough light gets in, but that simply makes it a nightmare with such a shallow DOF that it can be a struggle to get two sides of one face in focus!

So folks, I can accept that my own technique can always be improved which will help, but what do you recommend as the best compromise for low light wedding shots, given that people are on the move in most shots, DOF is pants with at 1.8 and things start to get just too dark with the 3.5-5.6.

Many thanks for any suggestions,
Lee.

[GertS]

It's a mixture of different things: Fast lenses and IS / VR.

IS can compensate camera shake to a certain degree, but doesn't work with moving objects. Therefore you must increase the shutter speed and fast lenses are needed.

However these are larger, heavy and expensive too. Your 18-200 is to slow for low light, try getting an 18-55 (about) with 2.8. There is nothing with IS / VR for Nikon mount available like the 18-55 / 2.8 IS from Canon.
Personally, I would never use an 11 times zoom for weddings as they are NOT that sharp as smaller ranges. I have the 28-300 LIS, which is really good, but comparing the shots with my 24-70L, it has no chance.

Another option is setting your camera to 1 stop underexposed, shoot RAW and compensate the 1 stop you gained later. Therefore correct exposure is needed for not having problems with extra noise.
A friend of mine has the D200 and moved up to D300 due to noise, I have Canon gear.

Tripod / monopod for reducing camera shake if no IS / VR is available can help to a certain degree.

[heartseye]

Lee....I think you can get away with the gear you have....IF you simply get more light. A more powerful flash unit like a Norman 400B would answer all the needs you have here....Sometimes I will use hot lights bounced from the ceiling to give me an area boost.......lots of ways to do it without spending fortunes on high end glass, which STILL may not work without more light.
My answer: Get more Light. Cheers, Bob

[tygersclaw]

Originally Posted by heartseye

Lee....I think you can get away with the gear you have....IF you simply get more light. A more powerful flash unit like a Norman 400B would answer all the needs you have here....Sometimes I will use hot lights bounced from the ceiling to give me an area boost.......lots of ways to do it without spending fortunes on high end glass, which STILL may not work without more light.
My answer: Get more Light. Cheers, Bob

Please excuse me as I am new, but, would using a SB 800 with a SB 600 remote work in this case and eliminate some of this problem the OP is having?

[Digiphotoworks]

Originally Posted by GertS

Another option is setting your camera to 1 stop underexposed, shoot RAW and compensate the 1 stop you gained later.

Many thanks to all for the advice so far, much appreciated. Gert, I think it's my lack of understanding of the exposure compensation controls, but would doing this not compound my problem with lack of light? Would I not want to increase the exposure by a stop?

Again, my understanding on exposure compensation is limited, I tend to shoot in manual and make adjustments to aperture/speed instead. Having said that, on the day I went with aperture priority and auto ISO...won't be doing that again in a hurry!

tygersclaw - I think the SB800/SB600 combo would certainly help. I have 1 x SB800 and 2 x SB600's to play with. My concern with this though is that I am on the move and trying to get more journalistic style shots and have been commissioned on that basis. Setting up SB600's and then backing off to get a shot with the SB800 attached to the D200 kind of risks missing the moment rather. I'd love to know more about how others here cope with this low light stuff. 2.8 lenses are great, but present DOF problems. I was using a 50mm 1.8, many of the blurred shots were simply due to too shallow DOF! I can't see a way of winning really, wide aperture = shallow DOF and out of focus shots given people are shifting around, narrow aperture = long DOF and blurred shots due to slow shutter speed.

There clearly is a technique out there somewhere if I could just nail it. It's most depressing, once out my studio and at a Wedding venue I feel I have lost all control of what is happening. I need to improve I know, D200 and three speedlights ought to be enough, the lenses aren't the best but adequate. I think I am the weakest link

[jfrancho]

I'm a little confused, you had a flash, but struggled to get shutter speeds fast enough to stop motion blur? The flash should freeze the action, and if there's enough ambient light to cause a blur with a flash, then there's enough for no flash with the fast prime. Post some examples of the issues you were faced with, and maybe we can help you overcome them. I think you should be fine with the gear you have, though more is always better.

[GertS]

Regarding the answer of heartseye with extra lights, I want to add that extra light helps, but there are several things to consider too:

- who installs them and looks after them. You are limited to the area which the extra lights cover. If you are moving all the time to different locations, they are useless. You need an assistant supporting you.
- extra lights cost too. I have no idea what these recommended cost, but good quality has always had it's price. Just checked B&H, it's "only" $ 1400.- , if you need multiple, then ask for discount.
- how often do you shoot in such conditions? If you shoot each 2 weeks a wedding professionally you might consider this option, but honestly AFTER backup of your D200 and lenses / flash. Regarding your original question I don't assume that you are doing this professionally. In the mean time you added some extra info. You must know how flash is working including compensation and it's trying out (but not at a real wedding). Check that all batteries are loaded.

So we need more info about you, your style and how often you are shooting in such conditions. Otherwise recommendations of gear might be useless.

[tygersclaw]

I just had this thought....please remember I am a novice/amateur (aka niviteur).

Were you using rechargeable batteries or, regular batteries in your flash. Reason I am asking, is I found that with fully charged rechargeables, they cycle faster and the flash is ready to go faster. As well when you DO click the shutter, there is less delay or chance of the flash not firing.

When using regular batteries, I found myself shooting and there was no flash as the batteries had been used to the point they were too low to rely on.

Just a newbie thought.

[EOS_JD]

Originally Posted by Digiphotoworks

Many thanks to all for the advice so far, much appreciated. Gert, I think it's my lack of understanding of the exposure compensation controls, but would doing this not compound my problem with lack of light? Would I not want to increase the exposure by a stop?

Again, my understanding on exposure compensation is limited, I tend to shoot in manual and make adjustments to aperture/speed instead. Having said that, on the day I went with aperture priority and auto ISO...won't be doing that again in a hurry!

tygersclaw - I think the SB800/SB600 combo would certainly help. I have 1 x SB800 and 2 x SB600's to play with. My concern with this though is that I am on the move and trying to get more journalistic style shots and have been commissioned on that basis. Setting up SB600's and then backing off to get a shot with the SB800 attached to the D200 kind of risks missing the moment rather. I'd love to know more about how others here cope with this low light stuff. 2.8 lenses are great, but present DOF problems. I was using a 50mm 1.8, many of the blurred shots were simply due to too shallow DOF! I can't see a way of winning really, wide aperture = shallow DOF and out of focus shots given people are shifting around, narrow aperture = long DOF and blurred shots due to slow shutter speed.

There clearly is a technique out there somewhere if I could just nail it. It's most depressing, once out my studio and at a Wedding venue I feel I have lost all control of what is happening. I need to improve I know, D200 and three speedlights ought to be enough, the lenses aren't the best but adequate. I think I am the weakest link

When using flash, it's better to shoot using the camera in M. Set the shutter speed you need and the aperture you want and fire. Your flash (if in ETTL and powerful enough) should give a correct exposure for the subject. What you may find is that the background is dark and the only way to get more light in to better expose the background is to shoot with a longer exposure.

What you were doing was shooting in Av. In Av mode the camera exposes for the scene (as seen without flash) and uses flash just as a fill. If you had tried manual and increased your shutter speed by a stop or two I think you'd have been much happier with the results. Background might have been a little under exposed but I think it would have been better. That is why you got subject/camera blur too. The flash was not sending out enough power to freeze the action.

Obviously this is only a sort of guide, but you need to be more in control of the camera in these situations.

Gear sounds fine - understanding exposure needs work.

JD

[Digiphotoworks]

Originally Posted by EOS_JD

What you were doing was shooting in Av. In Av mode the camera exposes for the scene (as seen without flash) and uses flash just as a fill. If you had tried manual and increased your shutter speed by a stop or two I think you'd have been much happier with the results. Background might have been a little under exposed but I think it would have been better. That is why you got subject/camera blur too. The flash was not sending out enough power to freeze the action.

Obviously this is only a sort of guide, but you need to be more in control of the camera in these situations.

Gear sounds fine - understanding exposure needs work.

JD

Yes, this makes sense and I can see how this would have caused the problems, thanks for the reply and mental note made to stick with manual for more control.

Agreed, I do certainly need to be more in control and I would also agree that I need to brush up on my knowledge of exposure, will be searching here for such.

I have been too busy in the studio where life is comparatively easy and the pressure on the day threw me somewhat! Still, I do thankfully recognise the need to develop my skills and appreciate everyone's feedback.

I look forward to the day when I can offer answers and not problems! It kinda takes the fun out of things eh!

[EOS_JD]

Originally Posted by Digiphotoworks

Yes, this makes sense and I can see how this would have caused the problems, thanks for the reply and mental note made to stick with manual for more control.

Agreed, I do certainly need to be more in control and I would also agree that I need to brush up on my knowledge of exposure, will be searching here for such.

I have been too busy in the studio where life is comparatively easy and the pressure on the day threw me somewhat! Still, I do thankfully recognise the need to develop my skills and appreciate everyone's feedback.

I look forward to the day when I can offer answers and not problems! It kinda takes the fun out of things eh!

To be honest I have learned the theory through reading a number of forums and reading books. Putting it into practice when the going is tough is very stressful. Try it before your next job. Play around with the settings in M. ISO will also have a bearing on how well your images are exposed.

[Mike_e]

Pardon my butting in here but have you tried putting your flash on a light stand and using a better bounce card type reflector?

I've read that Monte Zucker had a rolling light stand (a converted IV stand) for receptions. As a matter of fact, I think that I read it on this guy's site.. Chuck Gardner Tutorial Links

Here is a DIY flash modifier (from the same site) that works very well, too. DIY Reflector-Diffuser .
(btw, glue looks much better )


Or you can read up on much the same thing here.. Strobist

Good luck,

mike

[jachurch]

Lots of good advice so far. For me, the thing that turned my flash photography around was using the camera on manual as EOS_JD suggested. This thread by Mark McCall has some excellent advice on the subject.

http://photocamel.com/forum/weddings/26335-draggin-shutter.html

It is also worth coaching the B&G before the ceremony - the rehearsal is a great time to do this - so that they don`t race back up the aisle after the service. This will also reduce the risk of motion blur. Finally, wait until they are pretty close before shooting. That way the flash is not working too hard and your recycle times will be shorter.

Cheers,
James.

[Digiphotoworks]

Very grateful to all for the good advice so far. I've had my head buried in books for days now, as well as reading through all the great links posted here, my mind is close to frazzled but I think it's getting through.

[Digiphotoworks]

Some samples from the Wedding. These are some that I am a little less despondent about, they do seem to benefit from being b&w. When I feel less sensitive about them I'll post some of the shockers!

Wedding Photography Samples - PhotoCamel Photo Gallery - Free, Fast, Fun

Thanks once again to all that have taken time and effort to offer advice, it's greatly appreciated.

[EOS_JD]

Originally Posted by jachurch

Lots of good advice so far. For me, the thing that turned my flash photography around was using the camera on manual as EOS_JD suggested. This thread by Mark McCall has some excellent advice on the subject.

http://photocamel.com/forum/weddings/26335-draggin-shutter.html

It is also worth coaching the B&G before the ceremony - the rehearsal is a great time to do this - so that they don`t race back up the aisle after the service. This will also reduce the risk of motion blur. Finally, wait until they are pretty close before shooting. That way the flash is not working too hard and your recycle times will be shorter.

Cheers,
James.

James
The link you provided doesn't seem to work for me.... Is it correct?

Originally Posted by Digiphotoworks

Some samples from the Wedding. These are some that I am a little less despondent about, they do seem to benefit from being b&w. When I feel less sensitive about them I'll post some of the shockers!

Wedding Photography Samples - PhotoCamel Photo Gallery - Free, Fast, Fun

Thanks once again to all that have taken time and effort to offer advice, it's greatly appreciated.

Nice images - did you soften the bride's skin? In a few it doesn't look natural?

[GertS]

Originally Posted by Digiphotoworks

Some samples from the Wedding. These are some that I am a little less despondent about, they do seem to benefit from being b&w. When I feel less sensitive about them I'll post some of the shockers!

Wedding Photography Samples - PhotoCamel Photo Gallery - Free, Fast, Fun

I had a look on some of the images, love your comment about "That's the groom" , but when looking at the largest size of the images, the skin looks partly like plastic, for example the first image.

Can some of the wrong exposure be lead to wrong metering, as there is on several images a bright window, so the flash got the wrong information about light? You shot against light as fill flash on some of the images and the foreground is much to dark (example 3rd image: bride & groom)

I would be really interested in an unmodified "bad" image that size for seeing the problems.
Black & white converting is different and dependent to the taste of people, I might have converted some with more contrasts. All dependent on the person and conditions.

[craigsexton]

Digiphotoworks, I shot my first wedding inside during the ceremony in Ap priority. This was my biggest mistake as I had some shots just like yours. Get comfortable shootining in full manual mode. Just pay attention to the inside meter in your camer and practice around your home and other larger places to understand how far down the meter scale you can go and the flash still compensate in TTL. This way you'll always feel good knowing that you'll stop the motion blur but still get good exposures.

Craig

Happy shooting and Happy Easter...He lives!!!!

[Digiphotoworks]

Thanks Craig, glad I'm not the only one to have done this. The mad thing is I virtually always shoot in full manual, the evening before I decided aperture priority and auto ISO was the way to go, must have been too much whisky that did it.

You live & learn eh!

Happy Easter to all.

[Kiron Kid]

Originally Posted by Digiphotoworks

Thanks Craig, glad I'm not the only one to have done this. The mad thing is I virtually always shoot in full manual, the evening before I decided aperture priority and auto ISO was the way to go, must have been too much whisky that did it.

You live & learn eh!

Happy Easter to all.

Nothing wrong with aperture priority, as long as you know what the rig is doing & why.

Makers Mark of Jack Daniles?

Kironn Kid