guests taking photos during formals ?

[SyCo]

Originally Posted by DD974

I use the same workflow on wedding day...I never met a bride that wanted to see the groom before the ceremony.

Strange how the fashion has changed. Apparently this used to be the standard thing. Perhaps Ed can confirm that.

[jfrancho]

On my wedding day I had no idea what my wife would look like and the moment I saw her is etched on my mind.

Was this an arranged marriage?

[SyCo]

Originally Posted by jfrancho

Was this an arranged marriage?

lol, yea. I think I got luckier then she did.

Perhaps I should say I had no idea how she would dress. The dress is shrouded in mystery and the groom is not allowed to see it. The secret is such a big thing in the weeks leading up to the wedding that to expect all that suspense to fizzle out for the sake of the photographers schedule is less likely today.

If you can make it happen please share how because I'd love it if they were willing.

[osimages]

Originally Posted by SyCo

I always offer this option but I've yet to have a Bride and Groom want to do it before.

But I still ask

I never asked but rather let them make the decision. It is all about selling the idea to the bride and making that time with her groom a very private and romantic time.

If it doesn't work for you, that's great. For me, I was very successful at doing it for many years and have demonstrated this at some classes I have taught.

Is is all about connecting to the bride's emotions and let her make the decision.

[osimages]

Originally Posted by SyCo

Perhaps I should say I had no idea how she would dress. The dress is shrouded in mystery and the groom is not allowed to see it. The secret is such a big thing in the weeks leading up to the wedding that to expect all that suspense to fizzle out for the sake of the photographers schedule is less likely today.

If you can make it happen please share how because I'd love it if they were willing.

There is really no difference other than what time she walks down the aisle. If you remember your bride and how her dress looked, then you remember more than I do. I actually remember very little of our ceremony.

I create a moment for the bride and groom where he can still watch her walk down the aisle for the first time but without 300 people watching. It becomes a very special time for them because they can talk for a few minutes and share in the emotions.

You have to let the bride create the moment in her mind for it to work. I simply ask questions about the wedding and then as different things are mentioned, I use those to create the story of how special those things are on their wedding day.

Again, it worked and continues to work for me.

[Mark McCall]

Originally Posted by SyCo

I always offer this option but I've yet to have a Bride and Groom want to do it before. I Have always got the guys shots and the girls shots individually before but never the bride and groom. I can understand why.

Most couples do not want to see each other before the ceremony, until they are educated as to the advantages.
I hate to say it, but the more a photographer charges for their services, the more likely the clients are to take his/her advice.

Only about 10% of our clients elect to do any formals after the ceremony....because we thoroughly educate them as to the advantages.

[osimages]

Originally Posted by Mark McCall

Most couples do not want to see each other before the ceremony, until they are educated as to the advantages.
I hate to say it, but the more a photographer charges for their services, the more likely the clients are to take his/her advice.

Only about 10% of our clients elect to do any formals after the ceremony....because we thoroughly educate them as to the advantages.

Exactly

[jpiano]

Here's another thing you might consider. I once shot a wedding and the diaphram on my wide angle lens was sluggish. All my shots made with that lens were grossly overexposed because the lens wasn't stopping all the way down before the shutter released. This was on a medium format film camera so there was no way of knowing that I had developed a problem till the proofs came back. I was saved by a guest who took some pictures over my shoulder and captured an image that was really wanted by the B&G but blown by me. Since then, I always look at guest photographers as my backups. My wife now shoots with me and usually takes the formals from a slightly different side angle so I do have my own backup now. Sometimes they prefer her shots to mine because the subjects are not looking right into the lens.
I also get a set fee for the package the B&G order. Print sales, although wonderful, are just the gravy. Since I post my photos online where friends and family can order prints the next day, I figure most of the guests will see my pictures long before they get a chance to see any other pictures taken that day. Actually, most of the friends and family will probably never see that CD, and these are the people who will most likely purchase those extra prints. The B&G have allready purchased their prints in their print and album package.

[Ed Shapiro]

Wedding customs are very interesting in that the vary from one geographic location to another- some are traditional, some are governed by religious tenets and some are based on superstition or local ways of doing things. I some cultures it is strictly forbidden for the couple to see each other before the wedding ceremony, in other cultures it is perfectly all right and considered normal procedure for photography and in other circles it is considered bad luck. Nowadays in so many instances it is strictly up to the bride and groom.

Examples- At ultra-orthodox Jewish weddings it is strictly prohibited for the couple to see each other for about 10 days before the wedding. At most regular orthodox or conservative Jewish weddings it is traditional for both families and the bridal parties to gather before the ceremony and do a comprehensive formal session with their photographer. In many Christian denominations it seems to me that the churches has no particular say in the matter and the couple will do as the see fit- the same applies to civil marriages. At Muslim weddings the ceremony is not preformed in a Mosque. An official of the Mosque will attend at a secular venue such as a hotel or a hall and confirm the marriage- formal photographs can be made before or after this event.

I prefer to do all my formals before the ceremony but I never insist- I want the couple and their families to be comfortable with the arrangements and follow their traditions as they wish. If the couple are undecided, I explain the pros and cons of each plan and encourage them to choose what is more comfortable for themselves.

If all the formals are done in advance, in privacy, there is no issues with other photographers distracting the bridal party. We can achieve more emotional and intimate results because no one is making wise cracks, "entertaining" or giving instructions while I am shooting. Th rest of the day leaves the families free to enjoy the ceremony and reception without further interruption by my ruining around and trying to reassemble family and bridal party members who are in washrooms or having a smoke in the stairwells.

Now about the couple meeting for the first time as bride and groom in their wedding attire. The reaction is wonderful! If it is done in privacy all that wonderful expressions and romantic interaction can be captured in the formal closeups- sometimes this it nearly impossible to capture those nuances of expression in the middle of the church aisle with the entire conjuration looking on.

I live and work in a very multicultural city and I have learned yo roll with the punches and accommodate the wishes of many brides. Oftentimes brides borrow some of the traditions of other cultures and religious groups and add them to their ceremonies and festivities. There are also many mixed or cross cultural marriages and customs and traditions are combined.

If every wedding was exactly the same, I might have become board over the last 51 years. There is no harm in suggesting other "routines" as long as the are not offensive to the clients. I never ridicule what other photographers do in order to look after their clients and their communities. An open mind is the best bet!

There are more similarities between various ethnic and cultural weddings but it is the differences that make life as a wedding photographer more interesting and challenging.

As for equipment failure- we can not depend on amateur images to save the day of there is a major equipment failure. If anyone is overly concerned, a second shooter is a better precautionary procedure. Going back to the olden days of shooting 4x5 sheet film at weddings, we were strictly trained to make sure a sheet of film did not pop out of a film holder and block the bellows. We also used to check synchronization a regular intervals and switch to a spare camera of there were any issues. When the trend went to medium format, the same synch test was preformed from roll to roll and we also observed whether the automatic diaphragm was working smoothly. The same procedures were applied to 35mm film cameras. We also checked and made sure the rewind crank was spinning properly as we advanced the film to insure that the film did not detach from the take up spool. No with digital we still "chimp" to make sure thing are functioning properly. Theses are professional procedures that must become second nature while shooting. Following theses routines will insure that you only loose a frame or two if there is a malfunction- not the entire job.

Ed

[Papa Carlo]

Originally Posted by Phyllisva

I worked a wedding yesterday and during the formals i had several of the guests taking photos behind me . I had asked the Bride BEFORE the wedding to ask them not to and the Mother asked them not to when it was happening . Well it seems that there was a young lady that continued to snap away -- I was busy trying to get done --( we only had 20 minutes before the next wedding was going to kick us out . ) So I did not notice her .

Your fault. You might not notice her but you should have noticed that subjects are looking away. If they did look your way why bother ?

Originally Posted by Phyllisva

At the recpetion I saw her showing all of the family her ( MY ) shots on her Nikon D70. And then told her that she would make CDs for the entire family.
so my question is .... since there is really nothing I could do short of wrestling her to the ground -- how do YOU handle this ?? I just lost a lot of reprint sales . People would rather take a mediocre photo for free than pay for it . (I did't want to come off as a complete jerk and ruin the day by stopping and demanding her to put away her camera . )

You are a professional aren't you ? And your shots are soooo much better than hers ( yes shots taken by her are not yours ).
Relax, after you show your pictures nobody will even look at what that girl snapped out. If that is not the case consider trading spaces with her.

[Mark McCall]

Originally Posted by Papa Carlo

Relax, after you show your pictures nobody will even look at what that girl snapped out. If that is not the case consider trading spaces with her.

I was gonna say the same thing.

What in the world is all the fuss about?
Your actions at the wedding speak louder than your images ever could.
Most guests won't even see your wedding photos, but everyone will see you blow a gasket at the altar.

So what if Grandma wants to take a few shots with her cardboard 7-11 camera?
So what if the brides's sister whips out her D70....so what??
Trying to stop it is like trying to stop the rain.

We're foolish if we show up not expecting it to happen.

Are we worried about hurting our sales??
Let me tell you a secret.
Your actions at the wedding will sink your sales faster than everyone else's photos will.

[Pony]

This past Saturday I went to see my accountant.While there,I inquired how many photography clients she did taxes for.She had 9,one of which is a full timer w/a building and higher overhead.
Her oldest daughter recently married and the accountant hired her photographer client for the service.She complained excessively about this pro's work.She had another younger daughter who followed this guy around and shot all his formal poses.She said her daughters work was just as good as the pro.Proudly she pointed to an 16x20 framed print and said her daughter had taken it.I do agree there's a time and place for family and guest to shoot but it is also clear that these people give little if any courtesy towards the pro.It's good to get as much money up front as possible and it is also nice to get additional sales.Many of these camera owners think it's their right to interfere just because they think todays camera's do everything.THERE IS A FINE LINE,INDEED!

[SyCo]

Wireless flash triggers!

[chaz345]

When I was shooting weddings,back before digital was common, I had it in my contract that other shooting during the formals greatly increases the amount of time needed and often lowers quality because people start looking at them instead of me. I left enforcement to the B&G though. If someone was starting to be a problem, I'd ask the B&G what hey wanted to do and let them, or a parent address the situation. Back then reprint losses weren't as big a deal because the quality difference between a pro lab and the cornner drugstore was huge.

Today though I'd go so far as to say that the business model of low shooting fee and trying to make the bulk of one's income from reprints is nearly always a great way to end up VERY poor. The same technology that has made our lives easier in some many ways demands a completely different way of pricing. Set your shooting/package prices such that you make the income you want to up front, and consider any significant reprint sales to be a bonus.

[Pony]

I do agree w/Mark,JF and others who say to tread lightly.I can say that of the Weddings I've done,I told the B&G there were certain times where there needed to be no interference.If I thought the situation was becoming troublesome,I just looked at the bride and they took care of it.Other times they directed the others not to shoot until I got my shots.This worked effectively because of pre-wedding consutlation and I didn't look like the bad guy.I haven't done weddings lately but a few of my friends are local pros and it seems they are having similar issues to what I see here.I know them and their policy and it's enough to make me wonder.Looks like todays technology has opened doors for everyone.

[SyCo]

During the ceremony and speeches you are the only one moving around so you should have better pictures than everyone else so this is mostly only an issue during the formals.

I try for a couple of locations. Most guests only come to the first one. Make the first where you do all the more traditional formals stuff and invite people to come. You are the totally reasonable photographer and the other photogs get their nice shots. Make the second location where you plan to get the really killer creative bridal party shots and ask for bridal party only. Parents leave with the rest of the guests for the reception. Parents may well settle for other people's shots but the bridal party will want the killer trendy shots you get at location 2. Even if it's just bride and groom to location 2 keep the location quiet and just tell the limo driver. Just let the Bride and Groom know the time frame for events so they don't stress about the reception.

[SyCo]

Originally Posted by Pony

If I thought the situation was becoming troublesome,I just looked at the bride and they took care of it.

I absolutely disagree. Unless the situation is way, way out of hand, it's your job for which you've been paid handsomely to handle all aspects of the photography, this includes crowd control. The Bride's 'job' that day is to say I do, smile a lot and feel like she's in a fairy tale. It's certainly not her job to do yours.

[Pony]

Originally Posted by Mark McCall

Most couples do not want to see each other before the ceremony, until they are educated as to the advantages.
I hate to say it, but the more a photographer charges for their services, the more likely the clients are to take his/her advice.

Only about 10% of our clients elect to do any formals after the ceremony....because we thoroughly educate them as to the advantages.

That's an excellent percentage,Mark.Could you provide more detail?That's something I would like to incorporate.Most weddings here aren't done that way.

[SyCo]

Originally Posted by Pony

That's an excellent percentage,Mark.Could you provide more detail?That's something I would like to incorporate.Most weddings here aren't done that way.

Yes please share on the education. I'd love to get more before the ceremony.

Ed, I shot a Muslim wedding in India; what an amazing cultural experience it was. I got to see places that few western men have. Very surreal experience compared to the traditional western wedding. The Bride and Groom didn't meet until well after the ceremony and, considering every guest was stone cold sober, it was incredibly fun.

[Mark McCall]

Originally Posted by Pony

That's an excellent percentage,Mark.Could you provide more detail?That's something I would like to incorporate.Most weddings here aren't done that way.

I'm often amazed at the number of photographers who don't even attempt to educate the couple on advantages of doing any altar shots before the wedding.

Let's start a new thread on the topic.
It's far easier to convince a couple to do it before hand, IF you've educated them. I've started a new thread.

Originally Posted by Pony

It's good to get as much money up front as possible and it is also nice to get additional sales.

Do you think the florist says..."half now, half later"?
How about the cake designer? ..."deposit now, the rest after the cake is eaten"?
The DJ or band?..."pay the drummer and bass player now, the singer and guitarist later"?
Everyone else is getting paid up front. Why aren't you?
You should get ALL your money upfront. The couple will take no issue with this. I guarantee it.

You are providing the most important service of the entire day. And the couple knows it.