guests taking photos during formals ?

[craigv]

I have a specific section in my contract about this. The language makes the point in a friendly and positive way and I haven't had a problem...yet. I've even had brides that were so proactive that they've emailed the family (especially those who have "nice cameras") in advance to tell them how things will work.

[Montec]

One solution is to do the formals before the wedding.

[texasshooter]

I have a meeting with the bride and groom (required) on thursday before the wedding. I cover many things with them, but I am sure to cover:

Every woman you have ever known wants to take photos with you before the wedding, that is why brides are never ready on time. The more time you give others, is the less time you will have with me.

It is not as easy as putting a camera to my face and clicking a button. Taking a great photo takes concentration. I would rather concentrate on taking a great image, then to concentrate on getting your guest to cooperate. Guests can take photos as long as it does not interfere with me. They must stay in the pews, behind my camera equipment, and out of the aisle. I have tripped and almost fallen on guests and kids in the aisle so I do not allow it. So, I ask the couple's assistance in making sure this happens. I actually have had to calm down B/G's from being too harsh on guest trying to protect my needs.

When time is an issue, I will usally address the guests before we start and let them know about the limited time, and my need to capture many images for the couple. I tell them, I know they are special to the couple and that you are equally love them, so please help me create lasting memories for them by cooperating in my efforts.

[hotrod4x5]

Threatening to leave or having that clause in a contract to me says one thing: Primadonna. Holy smokes! I would never leave or even threaten to, that's a really good way to stress out your bride, she has enough to worry about. I don't want to add to her stress.

It is an interesting idea, letting everyone shoot the shot before you do. Those that do that, doesn't that take forever? 1 minute added to 20 poses is 20 minutes, time I never have.

[00silvergt]

This seems to be an ongoing and age old problem that is a tough one to tackle. When I did video for weddings, it was more of the same. I made it a point to always communicate with the still photog and so we can have an understanding and not get in each other's way. For 10 years that I shot video, I've never once had a problem with the still photog, however, the guests are always the issue.

They would block shots, white out my video with their flashes, etc. I too am not shy about approaching these folks and professionally, respectfully, yet sternly remind them that this is for the memories of the bride and groom and that I was hired (meaning paid by the bride and groom) to record their wedding. Usually, they stop and leave it alone, especially when you offer to send them a copy of your footage (for a fee), if they would like.

But you can tell the B&G, you can tell their mamas, their daddies, their great grand uncle twice removed, all you want ahead of time that you are the only photog, etc, but you really can't stop these people from grabbing their own cameras and shooting the wedding. With Video, it was a little easier, since I'd always have a staff of at least four people, 3 of which would be one of the biggest, baddest people you ever seen (we carry big, heavy equipment, need some muscle folks) and they would usually be on "Uncle Bob" detail during the shoot times. LOL

[SyCo]

I don't mind the over the shoulder stuff just be sure to tell annoying guests (or wedding party) that you've been hired at considerable expense so please don't be the one that ruins the photos. Some people are just idiots (or drunks) though and need to have a word. Stop the shoot walk over and quietly talk to them. They'll be as embarrassed as all hell and you get kudos for dealing with them in a respectful manner.

I agree that the BnG shouldn't be dealing with this on their day. That's why you find the wedding party 'mouth piece', the group joker or natural leader (not always the best man sometimes not even the in wedding party), there is always one. Find them, talk to them and give them the responsibility of keeping order. If someone gets out of hand. Simply give them a nod, they'll jump right in for you. They are also great for assembling the people for group shots. If I have to raise my voice excessively then I'm doing something wrong.

Walking off the job is IMO a terrible idea. You'll loose a lot more $$ in bad rep points and lost bookings then you would ever make in post print sales.

You can be forceful without being bossy, just expect people to do what you say! Don't negotiate, stand your ground and don't take any crap. Standing, waiting and saying nothing is really a powerful way to deal with issues, when done right (with attitude!!). Do you remember the school teachers that used to do that? They got respect! The ones that shouted and screamed were jokes.

I give the BnG the option of buying a CD/DVD of prints with BnW and Sepia versions of all photos (processed through a PS action for the vast majority). You still make your extra cash pre wedding and the stress level is nothing compared to fretting about the lack of after wedding sales.

If all else fails shoot into the sun so all the PnS flashes are woefully under powered!

[00silvergt]

Originally Posted by SyCo

If all else fails shoot into the sun so all the PnS flashes are woefully under powered!

LOL, yes, until you go to the one wedding I did, when all the guests had a better camera than my friend who was hired as the still photog. It was kind of funny and I, to this day give him crap about it. He came to the wedding with a 30D, most of the freaking guests had 1D's and 5D's, these are techies with money...He did hold himself professionally and kept right on going, but I know inside he was dying! LOL Another advantage to video, not many people, even if they had the money would want to buy a cumbersome rig like we do, so it is safe to be the one person in the event that has the best video gear. Not the same for photos. LOL

[SyCo]

LOL yea, even a 350D is wedding worthy (it's my current back up body!!) I suppose the days of the hired hand having superior gear is almost over. Spend big on the lenses, make the techies drool!!

[00silvergt]

Originally Posted by SyCo

LOL yea, even a 350D is wedding worthy (it's my current back up body!!) I suppose the days of the hired hand having superior gear is almost over. Spend big on the lenses, make the techies drool!!

Well, the nice thing...(steps back, I know I will get some flames for this) it really is not the gear that takes great pictures, it is the...(steps back even farther) it is the photographer! LOL His pictures, of course ran circles around anything the guests shot, it was a sigh of relief for him.

My backup is a 350D and when I get either the 5D2 or the 1D3, I would have my 350D and the 30D as a backup.

[brian.austin]

Originally Posted by hotrod4x5

It is an interesting idea, letting everyone shoot the shot before you do. Those that do that, doesn't that take forever? 1 minute added to 20 poses is 20 minutes, time I never have.

Actually, it doesn't. I tried it after reading this thread last year. As noted by others, the bride gets a bit irritable at this after a few times, especially after receiving direction from 10 different people. They don't have my lights or my set up so they never turn out quite as nice.

As for lost sales, I usually don't count on follow ups. I'm not good at it and not set up for it very well. I get a package price up front, meet those requirements spelled out in the contract, and rarely see follow up print orders. Because of this, on my larger packages, I usually include a CD full of high-res images. I may change this in the future but, for now, it works well enough and I'm getting paid fairly for a single man, no storefront operation.

[00silvergt]

Originally Posted by brian.austin

Actually, it doesn't. I tried it after reading this thread last year. As noted by others, the bride gets a bit irritable at this after a few times, especially after receiving direction from 10 different people. They don't have my lights or my set up so they never turn out quite as nice.

As for lost sales, I usually don't count on follow ups. I'm not good at it and not set up for it very well. I get a package price up front, meet those requirements spelled out in the contract, and rarely see follow up print orders. Because of this, on my larger packages, I usually include a CD full of high-res images. I may change this in the future but, for now, it works well enough and I'm getting paid fairly for a single man, no storefront operation.

A better approach may be a quick announcement that everyone will get to take pictures of the setup you worked hard on after you snapped your pics. I've seen this at a wedding I did as well. The still photog announced it to the crowd, "Please refrain from taking pictures, until I am finished taking mine. Thank you."
Worked like a charm for him, LOL I think I have even have it on tape. LOL

While most videoagraphers are dismantling and packing their equipment shortly after the ceremony, I (something I learned from a wise videographer) stay with the camera rolling, one to capture the wonderful setup, but the whole thing can make for great filler or B-roll stuff!

[Mark McCall]

Originally Posted by hotrod4x5

It is an interesting idea, letting everyone shoot the shot before you do. Those that do that, doesn't that take forever? 1 minute added to 20 poses is 20 minutes, time I never have.

Actually, it never gets to that point.
The bride will take care of this little problem for you after shot #5.

Originally Posted by brian.austin

As for lost sales, I usually don't count on follow ups. I'm not good at it and not set up for it very well...... I usually include a CD full of high-res images.

The reason behind your non-existant after wedding sales is right here. Why would a bride come back to you if she owns the files?
Your giving away the farm.

[PinkIvy]

Stop the shoot walk over and quietly talk to them. They'll be as embarrassed as all hell and you get kudos for dealing with them in a respectful manner.


That is a great way to handle it and keep it professional as well..thanks for a tidbit I'm making a note of

[SyCo]

lol, you're welcome. It's funny too how you do that one time and suddenly everyone starts to behave. Just like kids do. I used to teach kindergarten and I treat groups of adults the same way!

I think it's important to maintain a balance of control and energy. If you act like the photo natzi it's no fun for anyone. Although saying that some brides don't care about energy they just want stella prints regardless of what you have to do to wrangle the guests into cooperation.

I haven't booked all that many weddings but am ramping up now for next year but there seems to be a constant theme in every booking meeting. The bride and groom have decided to book a photographer and that's where the discussion ends.

My first question is always 'how important are the photos to you' and I be sure to get a answer from each individually. Every time they look at the other to see what their partner thinks. It's not something they actually consider as a couple.

How is all this rambling relevant to this thread? Ummm.... oh yea. If you know how the bride and groom feel, you know how much of a photo natzi you need to be. If they ask for a more unobtrusive and journalistic style, then be subtle. If they say they need perfect fantasy formals then you have to step up and take control. Just tell the distracting other shooters... 'no photos for you!'

[00silvergt]

Originally Posted by SyCo

lol, you're welcome. It's funny too how you do that one time and suddenly everyone starts to behave. Just like kids do. I used to teach kindergarten and I treat groups of adults the same way!

I think it's important to maintain a balance of control and energy. If you act like the photo natzi it's no fun for anyone. Although saying that some brides don't care about energy they just want stella prints regardless of what you have to do to wrangle the guests into cooperation.

I haven't booked all that many weddings but am ramping up now for next year but there seems to be a constant theme in every booking meeting. The bride and groom have decided to book a photographer and that's where the discussion ends.

My first question is always 'how important are the photos to you' and I be sure to get a answer from each individually. Every time they look at the other to see what their partner thinks. It's not something they actually consider as a couple.

How is all this rambling relevant to this thread? Ummm.... oh yea. If you know how the bride and groom feel, you know how much of a photo natzi you need to be. If they ask for a more unobtrusive and journalistic style, then be subtle. If they say they need perfect fantasy formals then you have to step up and take control. Just tell the distracting other shooters... 'no photos for you!'

LOL Adults, are merely larger children when they are drunk or in party mode.

[Ed Shapiro]

OK- So I am an old grouch! Well- not really- I'm a genuinely nice guy, HOWEVER, armature photographers, guests, bridal party members and the Paparazzi ARE NOT ALLOWED TO MAKE PHOTOGRAPHS WHEN I AM DOING MY FORMAL SESSIONS.

This is in the contract, it is fully discussed long before the wedding day. it is agreed upon and initialed and totally understood by all parties. IT WORKS!

It's OK for everyone to have fun with their cameras during the reception but they are not allowed to pop in front of us while we are working the candids.

All the family "photographers" are advised, by the bride, of this policy. This works because I convince the couple to protect their investment in me by not allowing well meaning but distracting guests to sabotage their "expensive" photographer. If they are paying their photographer a couple of hundred bucks- he or she becomes disposable- heck- the flowers cost more than that. When 5 grand or more is involved, their gonna listen up! Sad but true.

Some folks think that as soon as they purchase a camera, it comes with a license to do anything they please at weddings and events. Most folks are logical and nice but the same folks who would never think of telling the clergy person how to conduct a ceremony, walk in the kitchen and whip up their favorite dish in front of the caterer, sit in with band or set up his own DJ system in a corner of the ballroom will interfere with the professional photographer's work by distracting the bride, groom and their wedding party during the formal session. There is no sense or logic to this.

I am so tired of hearing about the "rude and obtrusive" photographer. I have been doing wedding photography for 50 years and I have never been rude or obtrusive at a wedding. I know hundreds of professional photographers who do the same. People who complain about all those awful photographers probably did not hire a real professional who knows how to get his or job done in a highly professional, efficient, swift and dignified manner.

Regardless of all my rules and policies, if someone brakes them in the middle of a wedding, I will not engage them in an embarrassing manner or start a argument and spoil the mood of the wedding. There are polite and diplomatic ways of handling such matters and every now and again we have to work around them. We will NEVER walk off a job or have a tantrum or temperamental episode in the middle of an event- that would just exacerbate the problem. If the proper and through kind of pre-planing takes place none of that will be necessary.

A consummate wedding photographer realizes that the wedding is not staged for his or her benefit, however, some cooperation is needed in order to do a decent job, especially where formal portraits are involved. In wedding photography, people skills are just as important as technical and aesthetic prowess.

Business wise, I always sell a complete package and do not depend of add on sales or guest orders after the fact. If relatives and friends want photographs, I ask them to contact the couple- all orders must come through them. I do not offer on line proofs for the purpose of taking speculative orders. This all may be old school but it works for me. My average wedding sale is around $7,500. I am doing big jobs with long hours- there is no room for speculation with such ever offer the negatives up for sale.

If you think this is unfair in inequitable, just take a look at how the new copyright laws are going to protect big money music and the mega-budget motion picture industry. Where's our protection? Our stock in trade is our skills in posing and lighting- why should anyone be allowed to "shoot over our shoulders"? Part of our livings come from exclusivity in making prints from our files and negatives- why should we relinquish those rights?

A person can be arrested for bring a palm-corder into a movie theater and selling the sub standard results to a bunch of idiots who will put up with low quality illegal copies to save what?- The cost of admission to a movie house- a few bucks for a top quality legitimate DVD? Big deal- they broadcast a film on U-tube! How childish can they be, not to mention petty and stupid?

Think about it! Ed

[Mark McCall]

We don't have a no-shooting policy.

Poachers just never seem to be a problem for us.
Mom's cardboard 7-11 camera isn't going to produce images like yours anyway. Heck, even an expensive SLR does no good in the hands of an untrained user.

Simply ask them to shoot their photo first. The bride, after seeing how much time it's taking from formals, will take care of the problem for you. Works every time.
You don't wind up coming off as the bad guy.

A no shooting policy can be a make or break deal for the bride if she's trying to decide between you and Bob's Photography down the street.

Maybe it's me, but I think photographers make this a bigger deal than it really is.

[kgphoto]

Here is how I handled the situation for 25 years.

1. Charge a lot. If it is costing them something, they will want to protect it. How much is a lot? That depends on your market. I remember when I did my first $1000 wedding and thought I would never go higher. I started at $100.00 for a wedding coverage, so you can see the growth. My later average used to be $3200 and I would sell up to $5K.

2. Don't give away ANY photo's. No free proof books, no full CD's etc. IF they want it they have to buy it. Establish a minimum value. if a 5x5 Color original is worth $15.00, that x 247 Proofs" that is $3705.00 plus tax. Establish value for the product that you CREATE.

3. Explain to the B&G your policy and why. Show them pictures of people looking off camera and say, you paid for my time/package is this the quality you want? Demonstrate the quality you get by using large format, large flashes, multiple flashed, whatever. Be the PRO! Explain that you use battery powered flashes for portability and no cords to trip etc and other peoples firing will drain them, delay your shots or possibly underexpose your shots. Ruining what they are paying you for. Don't guarantee any specific picture in your contract. Have that waiver in place.

4. Get agreement from them on what they want. Then send it via a letter to each member of the family and bridal party, along with make up tips, a schedule for the day etc. Make sure they will back you up at the wedding day.

5. Do the formals before the wedding whenever possible. It is a "recent" trend to do them after. It came during the 50's. Before that, and in some cultures today, it is mandatory for the groom to see the bride before the ceremony. Something about making sure there are no substitutes.

6. Be polite, professional at the wedding and gently explain once to the guests why they can't shoot while you are shooting your formals, but they can at any other time. If they persist, ask the Bride to handle it. It is not a big scene or fight, but the message gets across fast.

7. If someone is really out of line, set your camera on the floor and wait for them to finish and leave. I only had to do this once in 25 years. It was the bride's brother, he was a big shot lawyer and no snotty nose kid was going to tell him what to do. I was quite young at the time. I also look, young for my age. She supported me and he went away in a huff. Later, he came up and apologized and was very friendly during the rest of the day.

8. Once I set up an extra flash pointed back toward the guests and when they flashed it flashed and ruined all their pictures. I had heard about it at seminar and tried it. It worked fine, but I never really needed it after that. So it works, but I don't use it.

If you do all these things, there are some weddings you won't shoot. Some clients won't higher you. THAT IS OK! These are not the people you want as clients as nice a person as they may be. They may even be family. Who cares!

This is a business and there are only so many dates you can work. Those who appreciate your quality and approach will recommend you to others of the same taste and budget. Shoot those weddings. They will also recommend you to others who don't have the same taste and budget. DON'T SHOOT THOSE.

Life is to short to struggle, when you have the CHOICE not to.

[m.b.]

Originally Posted by Mark McCall

We don't have a no-shooting policy.

Poachers just never seem to be a problem for us.
Mom's cardboard 7-11 camera isn't going to produce images like yours anyway. Heck, even an expensive SLR does no good in the hands of an untrained user.

Simply ask them to shoot their photo first. The bride, after seeing how much time it's taking from formals, will take care of the problem for you. Works every time.
You don't wind up coming off as the bad guy.

A no shooting policy can be a make or break deal for the bride if she's trying to decide between you and Bob's Photography down the street.

Maybe it's me, but I think photographers make this a bigger deal than it really is.

Just what needed to be said Mark!
It would seem that since Aunt Barb and Uncle Bob don't have the off camera lighting equipment and technique that you do, why do you worry about it? Just politely remind them that you're the one that they paid all the money for. This is what the photographer that I second shoot for does and it doesn't seem to be a problem.

[joshman]

hey guys, i dunno how it's done in the states, but it certainly seeme a bit different than it's done here in australia, every wedding i've been to has pretty much gone this way:

Ceremony
in-formal shoot on church grounds
formal shoot off church ground with ONLY the photog and bridal party, possibly teh parents of B&G too.
reception.

that way, the family gets their photos, the professional photog gets their photos, which are unique in perspective, and location.

and everybody wins.

i think.