Canon 580ex Mark II

[CaptnWil]

I been reading the flash threads with Mark McCall and his advice to use a flash that meters externally and sets the flash exposure automatically, and his great experiences with Metz flashes.

Well, right there on page 27 of the 580ex Mark II manual is Custom Function C.Fn-05-3 with instructions on page 30.

It is External metering : Manual.

Just like all the advice on these threads, you set the ISO and aperture setting, and shoot away. You can set the camera any way you desire, but I have tested it in manual mode just like the advice.

Since I have just discovered it, I have only a few test shots, but so far, it works great. You may want to use a little flash compensation to get just what you want, but I have found that to be less than one F-stop. I have also found it to be very consistent.

Here is how I shot:
Camera: 200 ISO, F/5.6, 1/20
Flash: 200 ISO, F/5.6

If you need any flash exposure compensation, it is easier to do it with the ISO settings. If you use the same camera settings as above and change the flash ISO to 100, you will get a flash exposure compensation of plus one F stop.

A reason to consider the 580 II over the Metz is that you can use all the Canon wireless stuff with it. The 580 II guide number is also a little larger than the Metz 54.

The manual says this works will all EOS cameras.

Good luck,
Wil

[PavelOlavich]

Originally Posted by CaptnWil

I been reading the flash threads with Mark McCall and his advice to use a flash that meters externally and sets the flash exposure automatically, and his great experiences with Metz flashes.

Well, right there on page 27 of the 580ex Mark II manual is Custom Function C.Fn-05-3 with instructions on page 30.

It is External metering : Manual.

Just like all the advice on these threads, you set the ISO and aperture setting, and shoot away. You can set the camera any way you desire, but I have tested it in manual mode just like the advice.

Since I have just discovered it, I have only a few test shots, but so far, it works great. You may want to use a little flash compensation to get just what you want, but I have found that to be less than one F-stop. I have also found it to be very consistent.

Here is how I shot:
Camera: 200 ISO, F/5.6, 1/20
Flash: 200 ISO, F/5.6

If you need any flash exposure compensation, it is easier to do it with the ISO settings. If you use the same camera settings as above and change the flash ISO to 100, you will get a flash exposure compensation of plus one F stop.

A reason to consider the 580 II over the Metz is that you can use all the Canon wireless stuff with it. The 580 II guide number is also a little larger than the Metz 54.

The manual says this works will all EOS cameras.

Good luck,
Wil

I would try using EC on the flash head to dial in the exposure before up'ing the ISO. It seems that I often get the best in-church flash performance when I set the 580ex to 1/3 to 2/3+ EC, right on the flash, and I just leave it there, until I get to the headshots, then I set the EC to 1/3 or zero...and sometimes negative.

Remember the EC on the flash is for your subjects....

[Mark McCall]

I read up on the Canon 580EX II recently.
Amazingly, it appears to have a thyristor sensor on the front. If this is true, that would make it very flexible in being able to use it either in TTL or Auto mode (like the Metz's).

I haven't shot with it, and I sincerely hope many of the problems have been fixed since the 580EX....mainly exposure fluctations.
If the 580EX worked as I always felt it should, there wouldn't have been a need for a "II" version.
(never could get it to work consistently with any D series Canon body with the exception of the 5D).

I'm not anti-Canon.
I'm anti-"this doesn't work with that".

Originally Posted by CaptnWil

A reason to consider the 580 II over the Metz is that you can use all the Canon wireless stuff with it. The 580 II guide number is also a little larger than the Metz 54.

Everything Metz's will do wirelessly, Canon's will do, and visa versa.
Canon uses wireless TTL, Metz's use self-metering thyristor.
(Same result, just different approaches). If the new Canon flash does indeed have a thyristor based sensor, that would make it an appealing choice.

The Metz will require the use of a radio slave for off camera work, the Canon's is built in.
On the other end of the stick, Metz's can be used in the same manner with all manufacture's bodies, not just Canon.

A dissadvantage of the Canon is the lack of wink flash...a feature I've found to be invalueable.

[hypordk]

Sorry for sounding nieve, but what is "wink flash"?

[CaptnWil]

Mark,
Try (ABBC) A Better Bounce Card, you may like it better than the wink flash. It really extends the range of bounce flash, gives more exposure to the background, and great highlights to the eyes. Most of all it removes almost all of those bad shadows. It is cheap and works great.

I have done extensive testing with it original 580, and the results are that the ABBC is all I now use for bounce flash. My initial testing with the 580 II in EM mode using the ABBC shows even greater improvements.

But to get all the stuff on it, you'll have to put up with the inventors wordy videos at

ABetterBounceCard.com

Just suffer through them and give it a try.

Good Luck!
Wil

[PavelOlavich]

Originally Posted by Mark McCall

If the 580EX worked as I always felt it should, there wouldn't have been a need for a "II" version.

Mark, this comment makes you look anti-Canon, even if you say that you are not.

The new Mark II provides better build, sealing, and is more impervious to inclement weather. It has the same performance as the Mark I. It's reason for life is about a better build and not better flash performance. The Mark II recycles a bit faster, but those differences aside, the flash performance is the same.

As for the Mark I and consistency, I've found it to be very consistent over hundreds of shots at weddings. Not saying that it is perfect however. Like all tools it too has it's strangeness, but once understood it can provide consistent performance all day long.

Canon certainly makes their share of cr@p, their horrible non-L zooms, and even their 50L, which has not lived up to it's hype, but to talk Canon down so much reflects too much subjectivity, I think.

As for the Metz, I promised myself to look into their flashes, primarily for what you have praised it for, and I've often heard other pros say as much about Metz too.

[Mark McCall]

Originally Posted by CaptnWil

Mark,
Try (ABBC) A Better Bounce Card, you may like it better than the wink flash.

I think the main problem with a bounce card is that it's not as flexible as a wink flash.
Bounce cards allow you to bounce most light off the ceiling while the card it'self adds fill.

A wink flash based flash does the same thing...but it can be fired into a ceiling, a sidewall, behind you,...wherever...yet the wink flash still fires straight ahead for fill.

I used a bounce card for years...love the look.
But I love a wink flash based flash even better. Just more flexible in a broader range of situations.

Originally Posted by PavelOlavich

Canon certainly makes their share of cr@p, their horrible non-L zooms, and even their 50L, which has not lived up to it's hype

You call me anti-Canon?....your too much. LOL.

Originally Posted by hypordk

Sorry for sounding nieve, but what is "wink flash"?

A wink flash is a smaller flash tube on the front of a flash for fill. See graphic.

[CaptnWil]

Mark,
Is there a place where I can download a manual for the Metz with a wink flash? It sounds interesting.

If you have not looked at the ABBC web site, the concept presented is a little different than the standard bounce card. With one of the variations, you can get rid of the glare from bald heads, eye glasses, etc.

My only initial concern about the wink flash is that it is still direct flash and may keep all the bad things, but in a reduced scope, as any direct flash.

This whole discussion about flash has been very helpful.
Wil

[Mark McCall]

Wil,
It's been awhile since I visited the website, but I remember a young man taking my photograph using ABBC at a photography seminar a year or so ago.

About the wink flash being direct flash....
I've never found glare to be a problem unless the subject has really oily skin, in which case, neither a bounce card or wink flash will totally solve the problem.

The beauty of the wink flash is that it can be turned on or off when the big head fires.
Newer Metz's even allow you to change the ratio between the two lights.

If I didn't have the availability of the wink flash, I'd go back to the bounce card without blinking. It does provide a beautiful image.

I bet you could find a PDF of the users manual on the Metz website. They're marketed by Bogen, so you'd probably have to find the link on Bogen's site.

I'd certainly consider the new 580EX II if it had a wink flash. The new features bring it closer to being as flexible as the Metz.

[CaptnWil]

The manuals can be found at:
Metz - always first class. -

I have downloaded the one for the MECABLITZ 54 MZ-3, MZ-4 and printed it. 122 pages, but only every-other page is in English.

After going thru the manuals of both the 54 and 580 II, it would really be nice to get the 580 II to work well and consistently because of all the data communication between it and the camera. Of course, that means nothing if the results aren't acceptable.

Most of us who post problems with the Canon flashes don't provide complete info. Well, I've worked for a few years to get good results from Canon cameras and flashes -- D30, 10D, 1D II cameras -- 550ex, 580ex, 580ex II flashes, and I'll try to post the necessary info.

Until I got the 1DII, I couldn't get good results, but then two variables changed. The camera, and how I set the flash up. I don't remember where I got the advice, but here is what produced the good results:

1DII Camera:
Manual mode
ISO to suit: 200 to 800
Shutter speed: 1/30 to 1/60
Evaluation metering
Flash Exposure Compensation +1.67 set in 1DII

Flash: 580ex
ETTL mode

Results from this combination have been fantastic, both in direct and bounce flash. There has been some comment from Mark about different results from different Canon bodies. I had not thought about that before, but as I think about it now, it makes sense because, among other things, ETTL depends upon how good the metering system is. I think most will agree that the 1 series metering is superior to most anything around, and that may effect how good the combo works. Others may comment about how consistent their results have been with a ! series Canon.

Add this to the manual setting of the camera and you get close to what Mark advises for the Metz. That still requires ETTL, but the manual says that when the camera is in manual mode, the flash duration is set by the flash. I don't see a sensor on the 580ex, so I don't know how they do that.

This post is too long already, but I'll post some results with the 580 II before long. So far, things look very good.

Good Luck,
Wil

[golfer]

Captn, please let me encourage you to continue with the 580 series flashes vs: Canon cameras.
Anything that will improve my shots with my 5d/580 combination would be most helpful.
Thank you Mark for your input on the Metz. This must a fine setup as your photos are wonderful.

[Mark McCall]

Wil,
Not sure if you knew this or not, but it's possible to print only certain pages of any document, online or no.

Click File>Print.
When the driver dialog box appears, look at the box labelled Print Range.
That dialog will allow you to print your desired range of pages, or every other page.

Hope that saves you some ink.

[CaptnWil]

Mark,
Thanks, but I knew that already. I was just a little too slow to realize what was happening.

I have also downloaded and printed the Metz 58 AF-1 C manual. It has each language in a different part of the document, so you can just print that range. I print front and back to keep the physical pages down.

About the 58 AF-1 C:
The specs and features look great. Do you know anything about it, and have you used it? The built in bounce card along with the Wink Light (Metz calls it a "Secondary Reflector), and the ability to control the strength of the Wink light seem to give it even more convenience than the 54 series.

As I complete my tests with the Canon 580 II, I am giving this flash some special consideration because it seems that the 580 II and Metz 58 can be used together in a two flash situation.

I'll try to make a complete report on my 580 II tests, but initially, it seems that Canon has gotten the ETTL consistency much better on this unit as I compare it on my 1DII.

Wil

[Alter_ego]

Just dragging this one up again as it is of particular interest to me. I have a forthcoming wedding to do in October and a 40th wedding anniversary party to shoot on Sunday.( friends parents)

Captnwil; how are your tests going with the 580exII? Have you any more info you would like to share.

As I am now using the 1DIII with the 580ExII, I have the option to use 'Auto external metering mode'? I gather from reading through this wedding forum and many of Mark's posts about the metz 54 that this could be a useful option.
Can anyone explain the difference between external metering and E-TTLII.
Also, on page 30 of the 580ExII manual, it states that "with Auto external metering, the camera's ISO and aperture will be set automatically in real time by the speedlight" Would this be beneficial for indoor low light, or weddings, or would it be better to have total control over ISO and aperture?

[Mark McCall]

Originally Posted by Alter_ego

Also, on page 30 of the 580ExII manual, it states that "with Auto external metering, the camera's ISO and aperture will be set automatically in real time by the speedlight" Would this be beneficial for indoor low light, or weddings, or would it be better to have total control over ISO and aperture?

I think it's always best to have total control over your medium, so I do not think auto selection of the ISO, aperture and/or shutter speed is a good thing.

The difference between TTL and Auto External Metering:
TTL is "through the lens metering". Camera and flash work together to auto expose, using the parameters or mode your shooting in.
Auto External Metering means the reflected flash is read by a sensor on the flash, which then sends a signal to the processor telling it to cut off after proper exposure is reached.

I've found Auto External Metering of the Metz to be far more accurate and consistent to the TTL of the 550EX and 580EX. (I have not tried the 580EXII, but probably won't due to the lack of wink flash).

[Alter_ego]

Originally Posted by Mark McCall

I think it's always best to have total control over your medium, so I do not think auto selection of the ISO, aperture and/or shutter speed is a good thing.

The difference between TTL and Auto External Metering:
TTL is "through the lens metering". Camera and flash work together to auto expose, using the parameters or mode your shooting in.
Auto External Metering means the reflected flash is read by a sensor on the flash, which then sends a signal to the processor telling it to cut off after proper exposure is reached.

I've found Auto External Metering of the Metz to be far more accurate and consistent to the TTL of the 550EX and 580EX. (I have not tried the 580EXII, but probably won't due to the lack of wink flash).

So it would be of no real use when shooting manual inside as it would keep altering your settings. In what mode or conditions would you use Auto metering as opposed to manual metering.
With manual metering, would I be right in assuming that each time you change the settings on the camera, you have to change the same settings on the flash?

[Mark McCall]

When you say manual metering, I assume you mean using a light meter to determine flash output. Let me know if I'm off base.

Weddings are too fast and unpredictable to use manual flash IMHO, although I know Jim Deluco does it that way, and gets great results.

I think Auto metering is better for fast paced events like weddings.
Matter of fact, I use it almost exclusively.

[Alter_ego]

Sorry Mark, I think its just me confusing things. Let me try to be a bit clearer.
C.fn-05 of the 580EX II has 4 options.
0-ETTL II
1-TTL
2- External metering: Auto
3- External metering: Manual

I set the flash to C.fn-05-2 External metering:Auto. With Auto external metering, the camera's ISO and aperture will be set automatically in real time by the speedlight........I missintrpreted this statement. I thought of it like auto ISO. In fact it just means that whatever ISO and aperture I set on the camera, will automatically be set on the flash. The flash does not change anything unless I change it on the camera.
In External metering: Manual.......I have to set the ISO and aperture on the flash myself to correspond with the camera settings. Then if I adjust the cam while shooting, I have to adjust the flash as well. This 'manual' setting applies to other Eos bodies, with the 1DIII I can use Auto.

So when you say you use your Metz on auto, I assume you are using the Canon equivalent of Auto External metering: (am I making any sense yet)
So, The question is......would you think Auto external metering would be better than ETTL II. I know you have not tried it with the 580EX, but I would still value your opinion.

[Mark McCall]

Originally Posted by Alter_ego

So when you say you use your Metz on auto, I assume you are using the Canon equivalent of Auto External metering: (am I making any sense yet)
So, The question is......would you think Auto external metering would be better than ETTL II. I know you have not tried it with the 580EX, but I would still value your opinion.

Yes, Metz auto mode is the same as Auto External Metering on the Canon.

Yes, I think Auto External Metering would work better than any TTL mode.

But Canon's 580EXII has one major disadvantage....the absence of a wink flash.

I have tried TTL on the 550EX and 580EX (worked great on the 5D, horrible on the 30D).
The auto mode of the Metz is far superior (imho) than any of the Canon flashes in TTL.
Auto External Metering is better, but still not as good or as flexible as the Metz (because of the absence of a wink flash).

[Alter_ego]

Thanks for the reply Mark. I am testing both E-TTL and Auto external metering to try and see what differences there are between them. I am testing in manual exposure and AV mode, inside and outside.
Keep checking back, as I will post my observations and more than likely, a few questions. I have noticed a few interesting differences so far, but I need to test more and put my observations into understandable English
Ps. I am English, but I need to understand what I am saying or asking, before I just start rambling.