budgeting for a printer

[Mr. Pickles]

It is fun for awhile. Once you got great prints, all is great and stays that way, until....

[aam1234]

Another question, and it's not directed to the Pros. By a pro I mean a person who derives his income from taking pics. e.g wedding photographer.

How many good photos do you take guys. Good enough to be printed.

[Mr. Pickles]

It depends. Doesn't mean the photo is good. Means it has some meaning to someone. If it is family or friends, lots of pictures get printed, even though they may get put in a shoebox or album and not seen for years. Some get put in frames. Rotated in frames.

[Paul Shields]

Mr. Pickles is right - the key is that it has meaning to someone. I print things all the time, and 90% of the time they are family/friends shots that mean diddly squat to anyone else. As to how many good photos I take - if I'm out taking pictures today then I'll expect to print a few of them. The criteria is - they're good enough for me.

[august]

agreed. the only criteria that makes a damn bit of sense.

[EOS_JD]

Some great advice here but I'd like to add something else too. That is monitor calibration. Make sure your monitor is calibrated first. Then, if you can, purchase 9or make your own) printer/paper/ink profiles. That way you will see the best from whatever printer you choose.

Regards paper, you can sometimes purchase boxes of mixed paper to test out. i bought PermaJet paper here in the UK and a mixed box gives you the opportunity to try out a range of papers at pretty low cost before deciding to buy boxes. Also they have profiles that can be downloaded on their web site for printer/paper combinations which has been very useful.

Buying a printer is only the start - and i'd agree with the others that K3 is the way to go. i wish I'd gone for the 3800/4800. The R2400 is an awesome printer but the small ink cartridges is a real pain. I have to replace them regularly which means costs per print are quite high.

[brian.austin]

When everyone is calculating cost per print, is anyone really taking into account the capital costs of the printer and any calibration equipment? I hear some nice, low costs per print...coming from a $2,000 printer. If I print 500 images per year for two years before investing in a new printer (I'm guessing here), that's another $2 per print.

Those images per year estimates are also based on few, if any, scraps or test prints. I don't think it's unreasonable to look at a 50% scrap rate, especially when you're trying to get the workflow down. If that's the case, your actual FINAL cost per print is going to be much higher, since the costs have to be rolled into the final product.

[august]

here is what i am thinking brian i'd like to know what you think...

at this stage of the game a 5 print is pulling a 45 dollar profit @ 50 per sale. that's what i am getting for my top selling prints...currently i am using 5 dollar lab prints that i have to drive 45 minutes to get and i have to wait a day or two to get them done.
the last time that i used them i got three prints that were just awful and i ended up giving them away as misprints to some people who have been good about talking me up. (labeled as misprints btw...nothing goes out without a number date sig or misprint written on it...giving the misprints away has a nice effect of getting some of my favorite aquaintances to promote my work.)

i made 300 on prints last week...three days. i sold 4 for 50 and then two for 40 and one small one to a friend for 20.

granted, this is not a lot...but i am just starting out at this in a small tourist town. my method is word of mouth and a carrying a portfolio full of photographs that i break out when i can get people interested.

so it makes practical sense to me...even if it was a dollar or two more to produce, to avoid the middleman where i can.

long term, i am converting my studio (an old two story barn) from painting and sculptural work into a photography studio. i am also constructing a small gallery in the bottom level ... it is costing me next to nothing to use the space. i pay the electric bill and make a monthly donation to the local church that owns it.

those prints that i need to make for vendors i will send out for in bulk to save on costs but i intend to print the limited editions myself. most likely on rag paper.


i'm getting 50 a pop for this one @ 8x10.

(this was taken with a 100 wal mart camera.)

thoughts?

[brian.austin]

Originally Posted by august

i'm getting 50 a pop for this one @ 8x10.

(this was taken with a 100 wal mart camera.)

thoughts?

You're not tabulating your costs correctly. That's what I'm trying to get across here.

Nowhere in your calculations is TIME taken into account. You're using a local lab and driving 45 minutes to pick them up. Why? That much time (I'm assuming you're talking one way so 90 minutes total) plus the gas (especially at today's prices) plus wear/tear on the vehicle is a hell of a lot more than postage. Mpix will deliver them via regular post for less than you're paying in gas alone, I'll bet. I'm sure there are other suppliers that will do the same.

And why did you accept misprints to begin with? Most labs will refund or credit them if it's not your mistake (in which case it's not really a misprint).

Back to costs...

How much time went into that shot? Set up, shooting, post work, etc., all the way up to the moment you submitted it to the printer. That's a cost against the sales. All of it. Many new business owners never assign true costs to their time. I knew a guy that had his own IT company, bragging about how he had made over $75,000 in profit in his first year (that's his gross income as an S-corp, btw). That's a good first year for a two man operation in the mid-90's where I was living. Then I asked him how much time he had put in. "Wow. Thousands of hours. At least 80 a week, sometimes more."

"What did you charge when you were contract or working for someone?" I asked. The response: $40-50/hr for contract, $30 for W-2 work.

"So the paycut must have hurt." He didn't get it. So I explained it. At 80 hours per week, for 52 weeks (no vacations that year), he worked 4,160 hours. That comes down to $18/hr...before taxes.

There are only two times when you're making money on a photograph: when you shoot the image and when you sell it. Everything in between is indirect costs you will never recover. Spend two hours post on it? Spend four? Same output, same selling price, twice as much cost. Spend an hour tuning the printer? More costs. Print 10 copies before it's finally the way you want it? Your first print cost you what you're selling it for (ie you made no money on just the printing costs alone...not including time).

You ask about budgeting for a printer. That's what started this thread. Your goals are worthy and I applaud the effort to stick to the art. You need to ask yourself, though, if two to three times the effort to get a 3-5% improvement in a final print will make the difference in a potential sale. At $50 a print? No, it won't. I have prints on my walls that I paid over $1,000 for. For that kind of money, I'd expect this type of attention. At $50, though, I'm looking at composition, lighting, and if the print quality is decent. Most people won't even know the difference between the two anyway.

Most artists don't make money at this in the long term. Business people make money at this. Behind every successful photo studio is NOT a great photographer. It's a good business person that knows how to take a picture.

You've got the art side off to a good start. Make sure your business side is taken care of even more or this won't work in the long run. And quit selling $50 8x10's. $50 is a dinner and 1/2 a movie. Big deal. Matted, that print should be $99. Framed, maybe $225. Make your customers think there is associated VALUE in what they are buying, not "hey, what a good deal" while you sell 500 of them. I'd rather sell 50 $500 pictures than 250 $100 pictures. Why? Value...plus my overall costs are lower.

Sorry about the rant. I got on my soapbox again. Your turn.

[Mr. Pickles]

What Brian is saying is very much correct. You need to factor in all costs. Driving, car expense, time, printer cost, paper, ink, etc. All of it is a "cost".

The reason some bring it up is because people do NOT figure it all in, like Brian said. When you get someone like Brian to explain it, you want to cry

But, if you are doing a comfortable business, making enough money and having fun (VERY important) than it doesn't really matter about the overall cost, in theory.

But the topic is budgeting for a printer. So how long is it going to take to recoup a possible $2000 printer expense, plus the cost of each print when compared against driving to your lab and getting less than 100% satisfaction or using a place like Mpix or WHCC?

That is the real question and you should have some good ideas on that now...

[august]

i see what you mean.
thanks for taking the time to lay all of that out for me. i hope that i am not cutting into that margin!

i did'nt send them back because i wasn't sure if they were my fault or it was the labs. turns out it was theirs. they get good reviews from the local shooters and i went to them first...still, i feel that they are less interested in my business because i am still a small outfit and i don't know my way around the process.

mpix is an online service i gather? i will look them up and see what they have to offer. thanks for the heads up.

i agree with you on the matting and framing part. that is definately something that i am going to need to address...next step is working that out. alot of my work has been cropped to non standard sizes so i am definately going to have to either assemble them myself or have it done professionally...if i have to have someone else do it, it's gonna eat a big huge chunk out of the bottom line. if i do it myself...well there another cut by your observations.

that and i have to get people to get people into my studio because lugging a bunch of framed prints is not a viable option
so i am going to have to invest some money into marketing as well. (some will probably be wasted so i should keep track of that from the git go no?)

limited editions are how i intend to create value so that would only serve to enhance that element yes?

one thing that is fortunate about where i live (near scenic 30a about 17 miles from destin florida...8 million tourists a year) is that i am close to the areas where the big cash cows come in. i've been around the area for about 7 years as well so i have alot of contacts to work with for exposure.

so far, i have avoided those areas for now because i want to get the packages together and complete before i start working those markets. i plan on hitting them come spring when the first tourists start arriving and by then i hope to have some work up in public places where they can be seen.


i am relatively prolific and i am always shooting with my little pos...i expect to do the same with an SLR...because i have so many interests the result tends to be that i end up with a broad spectrum of material that can be divided into several categories. the output as i plan it is what i call cutting the cow...

the art division that i am imagining goes like this.

- images that are of interests to the average tourists and can be viably sold in larger numbers will be mass produced and sold for less. (less value...more prints) (simple frames...standard sizes...bulk savings for materials)
- images that have unique qualities, are rare, particularly beautiful or of interest to collectors will be printed limited edition and presented as a complete package (framed. matted. done.)
- finally, i will be creating specific fine art works which will be shown as a final level for those who are looking for work that crosses the edge and operates beyond the traditional model...more experimental work. the reason that i will be doing the rest of it. those will be in a small gallery upstairs where i work. this is where my own printing comes in...the last two levels. larger format...carefully constructed work that exists as an object in much the same way as a painting would. because i want to experiment...i need to do it myself. that is really the reason for starting this thread. i need a tool that can make that little room happen. the nice thing is that now i am talking with you about the things that can make that a reality. a good thing. this is where i want to end up. this place is my goal. the good stuff. the stuff that has a soul.

- finally, images that are applicable and which can be licensed as stock will be carved from the rest before i toss the rest into the recycle bin.

i am pretty much on the "artist" side, but i don't think that i am incapable of learning how to orchestrate a good return on these things with a little help...so i am glad for the input. i have alot to learn about these things and i think that i can benefit from making some real shifts in how i organize this effort from the beginning.

is this one of those things that i need to get hooked up with a left minded partner or a financial planner to make it happen or is it something that a little prep can make viable?

my goal is to make great work that can communicate my vision of the world with like minded souls and to have my work taken care of beyond my brief time on this world...not interested in the van gogh model.

am i making any sense?

[brian.austin]

Originally Posted by august

i did'nt send them back because i wasn't sure if they were my fault or it was the labs. turns out it was theirs. they get good reviews from the local shooters and i went to them first...still, i feel that they are less interested in my business because i am still a small outfit and i don't know my way around the process.

Then they don't deserve more of your business. Take it elsewhere.

mpix is an online service i gather? i will look them up and see what they have to offer. thanks for the heads up.

Yes, for those of us without business accounts. Their commercial side is Millers. Same lab, different costs, different support systems. If I were commercial, I'd set up an account there or at a similar online lab.

i agree with you on the matting and framing part. that is definately something that i am going to need to address...next step is working that out. alot of my work has been cropped to non standard sizes so i am definately going to have to either assemble them myself or have it done professionally...if i have to have someone else do it, it's gonna eat a big huge chunk out of the bottom line. if i do it myself...well there another cut by your observations.

NO. That's NOT another cost. Or rather, it is a cost but it's also an added value. Value additions allow you to charge MORE for a product.

The easiest way to look at this is rather simple. Every time you do something to a product, ask one question: would a customer pay more for this product if I do this operation? If so, you're adding value and should see your costs returned along with profit for that operation. If not, you're only adding costs to the process and LOSING money for the operation.

Matting and framing is a value addition to a product, especially if it's carefully matched up with the print. That's a good thing. And framers charge a flippin' fortune in some areas. Either find a local who will cut you a good deal or learn to do it yourself. It's not hard and doesn't require even 1/2 of what you're about to put into that new printer.

that and i have to get people to get people into my studio because lugging a bunch of framed prints is not a viable option
so i am going to have to invest some money into marketing as well. (some will probably be wasted so i should keep track of that from the git go no?)

That should really be a thread onto itself, in Business.

Marketing never makes money. It's a necessary evil. Pick up the book "Guerrila Marketing" by Jay Levinson (amazon link: Amazon.com: Guerrilla Marketing, 4th edition: Easy and Inexpensive Strategies for Making Big Profits from Your SmallBusiness: Books: Jay Conrad Levinson). Read it. Study it. Do it. It's not as expensive as many people would have you think.

limited editions are how i intend to create value so that would only serve to enhance that element yes?

Yes but limited editions only work if people KNOW they are limited. Sign the matte, below the photo, and number it (1/50, 2/50, etc.). When you hit 50/50, you're done. No more of those.

so far, i have avoided those areas for now because i want to get the packages together and complete before i start working those markets. i plan on hitting them come spring when the first tourists start arriving and by then i hope to have some work up in public places where they can be seen.

Start now. Personally, if this were me, I'd be hitting a few small galleries that are missing what you're selling. Not too many, though. Talk to the owners NOW before the season starts (or right after Christmas). Why? Because they're making their buying decisions BEFORE the tourists get to them, not when they're walking in. The store has to be set up, ready and the welcome mat out when the money starts rolling into town. That is NOT the time a gallery owner starts considering what to stock.

- images that are of interests to the average tourists and can be viably sold in larger numbers will be mass produced and sold for less. (less value...more prints) (simple frames...standard sizes...bulk savings for materials)

Get these printed and framed by someone else. It's not worth your time for what you'll get out of them. Market these to the cheaper galleries near the main shopping areas.

- images that have unique qualities, are rare, particularly beautiful or of interest to collectors will be printed limited edition and presented as a complete package (framed. matted. done.)

Hit and miss. Set a price point to use as a "outsource" or "in-house" setup. Decide how much you'll sell it for and THEN select the process for it. One of those $1000 prints was never actually handled by the photographer. Why? Because he couldn't do as nice a job at it and didn't bother. His philosophy is that he's a photographer. Let someone ELSE be the printer and framer. His name is John Gavrilis and he's a very popular landscape photographer around here.

Market these to the mid- to higher-end galleries. Be choosy and don't find one that has similar art. Offer it as a complementary addition to their current art. You might have to go consignment on this type of stuff. Keep good track of your inventory.

- finally, i will be creating specific fine art works which will be shown as a final level for those who are looking for work that crosses the edge and operates beyond the traditional model...more experimental work. the reason that i will be doing the rest of it. those will be in a small gallery upstairs where i work. this is where my own printing comes in...the last two levels. larger format...carefully constructed work that exists as an object in much the same way as a painting would. because i want to experiment...i need to do it m