COSTCOS PRINTING

[gumper]

Well thats what the lab tells me, Mark.

[Mark McCall]

Originally Posted by gumper

Well thats what the lab tells me, Mark.

Keep in mind the employee behind the counter at Cosco / Sams / WalMart is most likely a minimum wage employee with little knowledge of the workings of the Frontiers, Fuji products or photography for that matter.

I wouldn't take everything they tell you as gospel.

The only difference between the Frontier at Cosco and the Frontier at the pro lab is the RIP software used to workflow the printing. To get the same level of prints from Cosco that a pro lab produces, disable the Auto Correct feature (if your certain your color/density is correct).

[gumper]

Your right about the software used in the Frontiers, much more expensive than Costco's. The pro lab I am currently using uses a LightJet printer system.

It was the pro lab that told me about the contrast differences. The Manager there has been doing it for over 17 years now and I have had two labs here in my state tell me the same thing. They use the lower contrast paper because they feel it does a nicer job on portraits. When I worked in a lab (years ago before the digital age) we used Kodak Endura and it came in different contrast levels. I cant imagine Fuji would only make one type unless their thinking is to keep simple to keep costs down.

So, if the lab is wrong (or misinterperating what the label reads) Im going to really give em heck about it. Lol

Now my curiosity is really up. Thanks for the heads up.

[Mark McCall]

I got to see the Oce LightJet in action at PMA, but we're talking Frontiers.

The lightjet is a whole 'nother cat.

Originally Posted by gumper

I cant imagine Fuji would only make one type unless their thinking is to keep simple to keep costs down.

Fuji does offer different types of paper. I use E Surface and Pearl myself.
But I do not believe they have a high or low contrast version of these papers.

[gumper]

Ok, I did some more homework regarding the contrast issue and Fuji paper. I had been told that there were different contrast papers. Well, I found out that I am both wrong and right. I only spoke to two pro labs here who use Fuji paper and the District Manager of Costco for my region. Now I am only trying to interpret what I was told the best I can so don’t shoot the messenger if I get some of it screwed up. lol

There are differences in the types of paper that Fuji produces. One of them is the contrast they produce. The name Crystal Archive is just a brand name that covers a series (or family) of papers. Fuji Crystal Archive comes in different types of paper geared both for Consumer and Professional. When I say “types” I mean beyond the surface coatings you can choose from. i.e.: luster, glossy, etc. just like other brands of paper do.
Here’s a link to Fujifilm USA’s web page showing what’s available. http://www.fujifilmusa.com/products/photofinishing/paper_lab_products/color_papers_printing_materials/index.html They range from Pro Super type C, Pro Super Type P, Pro Super Type PD and Type One type C, Type II type H, Digital Pearl, etc. Each type is available with one or more surfaces.

Ok, these different “Types” do have different contrast outputs even though they don’t tell you this on the label or in the spec sheets like this one. http://www.fujifilmusa.com/shared/bin/SuperTypePD_07.pdf There is not a rating system for them. The contrast differences will usually be minimal.

What determines which “Type” a lab uses? It’s not as technical as you would think. Apparently, supply/demand and price for most. My pro lab uses Type PD for Luster and Type C for Glossy. Type PD is lower in contrast than Type C. So, if I have ‘the pro lab’ print an 8x10 of the same exact file on both “Types” of paper, they have the printer set up to adjust the color and contrast to match each other so that I wont see a difference in the two side by side (well almost). The pro lab is owned by a professional photographer so he chose Type PD based on what he and fellow area photographers agreed on for the quality in the subtle areas of contrast and color it produces for professional portraits.

Costco is different. Each Costco is controlled by a district manager of sorts depending on the region area it belongs to. Each area may consist of only one state, a partial state or several states. This manager makes the decision of what materials your Costco lab will be using based on several things like availability and price. My area Costco is using Type II paper because (as he tells me) they are catering to amateurs who up until lately, have been using instamatic film cameras. Fuji considers the fact that amateurs don’t know what they’re doing and their film will be under exposed and flat. Type II is higher in contrast to help give those photos a little extra pop. Supposedly, this same region will be changing papers soon to cater to a higher rising number of professionals using their labs.

Your area Costco lab quality may be very different from mine as their policies for quality control can be very different. Why? They may not be as concerned about cleaning out the processor on a regular basis like mine does. They may not do periodic ‘image checks’ to calibrate the different size papers to match color. I’m assuming you know that different batch numbers of a same paper will have a shift in color. That area may not train the people behind the counter very well like Mark pointed out. They may only have a certain deal with the area supplier. Who knows?

So which “Type” do I ask for? I doubt your lab will give you a choice. I doubt you would even notice the difference unless compared side by side and then, well..... I think the bottom line is test, test, test and go with the lab whose results you like best.

Why did Fuji create all the different “types” I hear talk that it was originally geared towards the various machines using them between analog and digital output but I want to corner the Fuji rep on that one first.

Did I explain myself well enough? Hope this wasn’t too much info.

[Tusker]

Biggest problem I have run into is the fact Costco's tells me they cannot print a 'square' photo and retain the entire print as sent. --- I am learning not to crop anything before printing. ??

[Tusker]

Originally Posted by gumper

I'm just curious, could you be more specific about what you mean that Costco could never print it? The quality was bad, color was always off or they just wouldnt actually print it?

I have tried a couple of different Costco locations and have gotten slightly different results from each. Color being the most noticable. Some use a Frontier and some still use a Noritsu. Clarity has been the biggest difference from the one store using a very old Noritsu. Side by side the prints from the older Noritsu are a little soft compared to those printed from the newer Frontier machines. Have you been able to try more than one store?

Gumper- Yes I can-- Color was off, and the text was unreadable. See also my last post about being unable to print a square photo after cropping for web posting.

[gumper]

Costco's tells me they cannot print a 'square' photo and retain the entire print as sent. --- I am learning not to crop anything before printing. ??

Huh I'm not sure if I'm reading you correctly. You mean like taking an 8x12 and squeezing all the image into an 8x8? Why would you want to do that and distort the image? Not sure what kind of photography you are doing but if I know I'm going to crop square, I zoom back far enough allow for the cropping of the sides later (using rectangular sensor).

Color was off

Sounds like you just need to tweak (profile) your monitor to match the output of their printing.

and the text was unreadable.

I'm assuming the prints are too soft to read small text? If so, nothing you can do about that one. They either fix the machine or you find another lab.

[dougsmit]

Originally Posted by Tusker

Biggest problem I have run into is the fact Costco's tells me they cannot print a 'square' photo and retain the entire print as sent. --- I am learning not to crop anything before printing. ??

Crop all you want BUT remember to attach enough blank space to one side or the other so the file submitted matches the print format ordered. If you have a 2000 x 2000 pixel file and want an 8x8, just enlarge the canvas to 2000 x 3000 pixels with the extra material plain black, white or anything you want. Order their standard 8x12 and cut away the blank part when received. If you are ordering prints with 'No Corrections' as is always recommended when you are processing files on your computer and have matched your screen to their output, the extra will not have any effect on the print quality. If you are too lazy to go 'No Corrections' you might get better results if the extra part is neutral gray so it won't be picked up by their metering systems.

Costco does most of their work for people who know nothing about photo. They have the options for people who are willing to work with their system and provide a proper file. Where they fall short is when people think they can pay 15 cents for a print and get someone to do all the work for them as if they were paying $15. Even then, Costco comes close since you can go in and talk to people who know how to get the most out of their equipment and will walk you through the process (go weekdays near start of the day when they are less busy and talk to the manager). If you are selling prints and plan on tripling whatever you pay for the prints anyway, you might as well pay a custom lab to do your thinking but if you are willing to do your part to match your input to their output, there is money to be saved by doing some of the thinking yourself.

[Tusker]

Well Doug- I do plenty of thinking- All I want is a print of what I send them. Not what they think it should be. They should post their limitations, if that is the case. You wouldn't expect them to put three tires on your car and the fourth one a different size because they ran out? --There are no custom labs around here, and as for the text, fototime had no problem with the entire print. There is NOTHING wrong with my Mac's, which seems to be the excuse I get all the time. Just don't pretend to be what you are not. Just say your equipment isn't geared for the require work, but don't try to tell me there is something wrong with MY equipment. I could care less about the money, what I am after are the proper results. They are very good at what they do, but that is is where it ends. Don't want to drag this out but I expect to get what I pay for.

[Not4wood]

Tusker,

Your correct in your needs for quality prints. If the Costco printers or better yet the people that work there are having a hard time printing what you want, then its to your advantage that you try and work with them. I think that if you want the best quality you can get, then you have to talk to the Manager and see if you can come to some sort of understanding to both of your needs. What they need from you is to probably Calibrate something to there standards like what has been mentioned in a previous post above. Whether it be your Color Space, there lack of quality control or even if there machine isn't clean enough. You just also have to remember, you get what you pay for.

There is also another choice that hasn't been mentioned if you say you are limited to your choices of Labs. Thats the Online PhotoLab that can print out your order and then UPS it back to you.

MPIX.com Mpix.com - Home
White House Custom Color White House Custom Colour - Professional Photographic Lab and Press Printer

These two are just an example, it also depends on what country or what area of that country you reside in.

[EyesLifted]

I've heard really good things about Costco, and the thrifty side of me is VERY interested in trying them out and switching. My current Pro Lab is litterally a 3 minute drive from me though and I have a 3 year relationship with them. But they are not cheap. I pay $2.20 for a 8x10. They always come out lovely though - Luster Finish on Kodak Endura.

Now, it sounds like I could get a comparable quality out of Costco for significantly less. But here's my dilemma. As a small business owner, I feel it's almost my duty to support other small businesses. I get a lot of requests to take pictures of kids and pets on a white, high key backdrop. And honestly, these same people could go to a Babies R' Us, or perhaps even a Sears Portrait Studio, and pay a lot less for a very similar result. Thank heaven's they don't.

With that in mind, I think I'd rather raise my prices in order to keep supporting my local small biz. Pro Lab then contribute the the world being overtaken by Costco's and Walmarts. (I do shop at both stores though... which is why this crisis of conscious is killing me...) It is so tempting though...

[dougsmit]

I am a big fan of Costco but see your decision as a 'no-brainer' . $2.20 for 8x10 (vs. $1.49 at Costco) is not all all out of line to pay. Add convenient location and political correctness and I'd use your lab if it were nextdoor to me. The difference is that some of us have so-called pro labs with twice the price and half the service thinking they deserve to be treated like auto manufacturers and get bailed out in one breath and patronized like mom-and-apple-pie small businesses in the next. If you need to raise your prices to make up the difference between $2.20 and $1.49, you must be running a pretty tight margin anyway. If you were charging $10 and move to $11 for this cause, OK; if you jump to $15 on this excuse, perhaps your customers will be forgiven a visit to Sears.

Before condemning Costco and Wal-Mart in the same breath, research the two stores for statistics like employee pay, benefits and retention rates. A business does not have to be small to be responsibly run and just being a small business does not make it worthy of support.
The Costco Challenge: An Alternative to Wal-Martization? (July 5, 2005)

[EyesLifted]

Originally Posted by Doug

Before condemning Costco and Wal-Mart in the same breath, research the two stores for statistics like employee pay, benefits and retention rates. A business does not have to be small to be responsibly run and just being a small business does not make it worthy of support.

Thanks for the comment. I was under the impression the Costco 8x10's were under $1. Need to do my research. That link sounds really interesting, it's bookmarked for me to read this evening. I totally agree that just being a business should not grant you any rights, freedoms, and carte-blanche support. I live in a Los Angeles suburb so we've got a great mix of big places and small operations. Walmart's benefits and career growth opportunities are pretty darn good and can easily beat out almost all Mom-and-Pop places. But they afford that because they buy a ton of less expensive foreign goods and they drive down the sale prices of the suppliers. It's an interesting conundrum. That being said, I'm most certainly a bit hypocritical 'cause I can be found inside our Walmart a few times a month...

Back to printing - there's another lab near be with cheaper prices ($1.00 per print for pro photographers with a resellers license) but the quality just isn't there. The do all my bulk printing and holiday cards for me though. I can't beat $0.35 for 4x8 cards and $0.55 for 5x7's in quantities of 25 or more. The owner has tried to talk me into taking all my business to him, and while an extra $1.20 per 8x10 is very tempting, I can't justify it. (FYI: I charge $32 for an 8x10, $20 for 5x7's.)

[dougsmit]

IMHO, at $32 an 8x10 the cost to you of a print is a very small part of the consideration. What you are selling is your ability and fair use of all that equipment. That means you should get prints where the prints are the best even if they cost twice as much. 90% of your customers may not know the diffe