Which printer NOT to buy?

[jfrancho]

Originally Posted by martin-images

So do I, , cant accept what you say about home printing as hobbyist, so lets agree to differ

Martin, we're talking about printing up to 13" here. Even so, your 3800 still doesn't finish the prints, and cannot add any texture. The texturizers I've seen start at about $1500. The original question was "Which photo printer have you been disappointed in?" and I doubt that anyone laying out $3-4K just did it because they want to try their hand at printing, not including the calibration software and colorimeter, which is at least another $1000. Obviously, you invested a great deal of time, energy, money, and training in producing your prints. The average dude here is either going to get a $200 - $500 printer, and use the stock paper profiles, and probably be happy with that. However, that does not compare to what a pro lab can provide. Heck, even with your setup, you cannot provide one tenth of the product offering I can. Therefore, I see it as nothing more than an extension of your hobby. Even if you do sell your prints for a profit.

[brian.austin]

Mpix (my primary supplier) charges $1.99 for a color corrected 8x10. Two bucks on Kodak Endura paper. They charge $4.95 for USPS Priority shipping. I typically get 5-10 prints at a time to bundle up on shipping.

Assuming $2.50 per print, with shipping, that's 750 prints from a Epson 3800...not including supplies & materials. Add those in and I'll bet you have to hit 1000 prints before starting to see a return on the printer.

Typical lifecycle of computer equipment is three years before replacement in a production environment. That's 333 prints per year that have to be done before the cost advantage of in-house printing starts becoming obvious.

And that's BEFORE you add in your time.

I'll stick with the labs.

[stdon]

Originally Posted by jfrancho

I doubt that your R1800 does all the finishing that I get from WHCC. Does it do gallery wraps? does it print 4x6 proofs on 5x7 texture paper and spiral bind it? What about mounting on mat or foam? What about press stuff? Christmas Cards? Books? Home printing is fine for a lot of things, but it is still at the hobbyist stage when it comes to printing above 13".

As I said I WAS a WHCC customer so I am aware of their services as well as Mpix. Gallery wraps? If a customer wants it I get it done locally to MY satisfaction to MY specs.
4X6's, 5X7's PfffT I don't even bother. Everyone has a printer at home and if the customer wants to dink around fine. The jobs are big enough I just give them the watered down files that will print a somewhat reasonable 5X7 and they can fart around with it as much as they want.
Paper? I'm not at all limited by the Kodak stuff that's offered which I don't find that good to begin with. There is a plethora of the very highest quality papers I have on hand and at my disposal to choose from to be limited to a mediocre RC paper.
Mounting? I do that if they want. Just takes minutes on quality foam core I pick myself.
Matting/Framing? Very subjective and depends on not only what the image is but where it will hang. For me that's best left to the customer. Pictures of the horse culture could be hanged anywhere from a barn tack room to a dining room. Off road GP scrambles could be hanged in the grandparents living room or an RV. I have a local I work with or point them in the direction of B, Franklin or some other framer of their choice.

Books/calenders, I have that covered locally too. My printer just won a competition in NYC with over 3500 entrants in vertical no less and his prices to me are very reasonable and I know when I go through town and pick them up I have no worries of their quality.

I went to a quality CIS that's been tested and between my calibrated monitor and calibrated (lowly)R1800 in blind testing with customers that have received from me both WHCC and MPix prints prefer the prints I have control over and not a college kid back East.

Calibration time is minimal at most. My work flow is such that when I print I can set it and go on to other productive activities like not having to consider if my prints will make it back to me on time or if USPS, UPS or FedEX trashed my prints. (Has happened and put me in a jam.)

Above A3 I go back to my local printer where again, I have control and one day service. I like to work locally with the professionals. I like to keep my and my customer's money at home. The people I work with appreciate that because they know what the online competition is and they also know they have to look me in the eye when the project is complete.

So Mr. Francho when someone like you calls someone like me a hobbyist I'd say you better stand your ass back because you may have absolved yourself of accepting responsibility for your finished product but I as most haven't. I tried your way but my customers who the vast majority are repeats and pay the freight prefer my way and for me that's all that matters.

Your hot air and bravado are not facts based in evidence.

Dn

[jfrancho]

So Mr. Francho when someone like you calls someone like me a hobbyist I'd say you better stand your ass back because you may have absolved yourself of accepting responsibility for your finished product but I as most haven't.

I suggest you think of a better way to disagree with others. Your little testosterone at the end is unnecessary. You made your point. I do not agree. If it works for you, then go about it. Home printing is a hobby.

[Paul Shields]

Originally Posted by brian.austin

The Epson 3800 is a $1500 printer. The idea that this is a "hobbyist" printer seems a bit extreme, especially given the lifecycle of most printers. You're not a "hobbyist" if you're selling "hundreds of pictures per year". At the least, you'd be classified as semi-pro.

I'm not sure if Martin was saying he was a hobbyist printer - I thought that was jfrancho's quote?

Anyway, Martin sent me a couple of example prints recently as I was interested in a particular paper type (and I've probably forgotten to say thanks - so, thanks Martin!). I think for someone like him, who is a very serious and capable commercial photographer, making his own prints makes sense. If you are a real hobbyist then fine send it off to a lab and get back whatever they give you.

[aam1234]

People cite "control" as a mean reason to print at home, but I'm not sure if that is entirely true. I mean, you can do all the processing you like then send it off. Perhaps the only control one loses is the type of paper, but that can be mitigated by using another print service that carries the paper you like.

Hope I'm not missing something here.

[jfrancho]

Let me put this "hobbyist" statement into perspective. I used to be a an aquarium hobbyist. I had four six foot display tanks (125-150 gal), two more four foot tanks (70 gal.) upstairs, as well as the few odd smaller tanks. In the basement I had over 2000 gals. of spawning, nursery, and growout tanks in my fishroom. I had a RO/DI unit capable of providing 300 gal./day of completely deionized water for use with my discus fish and the few marine tanks I maintained. I had more water analysis tools than the local water authority. I have not only bred discus successfully, but over 125 other species of Cichlids. Add in the few Anabantoids, Characins, Livebearers, Killis, and oddball catfish (Ancistris hoplygenys and various Corydoras sp.) that I've bred, and that number approaches 150. I've even had spawnings of some marine fish, specifically some blue devils and percula clowns, but wasn't able to get them past the larval stage. I've kept and propagated several species of coral, both soft and the calciferous "true" corals. Many of these fish that I raised were sold in quantities to satisfy the demands of the wholesale pet industry. I have written articles for club newsletters as well as popular aquarium magazines. I have met many people through my "expertise" in this area, and even been given fish by a famous fish collector.

All of this is way beyond the typical guy with a few tanks. I made a profit that offset all of the cost of all this equipment. But, I still consider it a hobby. Later, I worked in a importer/wholesaler of tropical fish. We had 1500 sq. ft. fishroom with hundreds of tanks. Fish came in, were conditioned for sale, sold, and distributed to pet shops all over the state. This was not a hobby. I visited a goldfish farm and a couple of tropical fish farms, and these were operations that made the wholesaler look like small potatoes. That was not a hobby.

Now, as for the quality of product, I would say all three had similar overall quality, although in my biased opinion, mine were the best. But I could only produce four or five species worth of sustainable stock. The fish farms had a larger variety, even then, they were specialists. Each farm and location had its strong species groups. The wholesaler on the other hand was able to consistently deliver hundreds of species for every type of customer on a consistent business.

I realize this is in no way related to photography, but the point is, despite using some sophisticated equipment to rear delicate livestock, my setup was still a hobbyist setup. Home printing can only provide a few products, whereas the pro lab can provide everything.

[martin-images]

Originally Posted by brian.austin

The Epson 3800 is a $1500 printer. The idea that this is a "hobbyist" printer seems a bit extreme, especially given the lifecycle of most printers. You're not a "hobbyist" if you're selling "hundreds of pictures per year". At the least, you'd be classified as semi-pro.

You choose to spend your time printing. I tend to agree with John: let the print experts do the printing while I do the shooting. Not only do I get more FINISHED product capabilities (ie bigger product mix) but I get their years of printing experience so I don't have to mess with it. And I'll go a step further and say that I use some of their framing services as well. This is with a full blown woodworking shop of my own and all the pieces/parts necessary to DO my own framing. Time-wise, I'd rather be shooting or building furniture (which brings considerably more money).

Most pro studios tend to do the same thing John is doing: send it out for printing after their post processing.

Yes I do sell hundreds of pictures from digital-monochrome fine art black and white landscape print galleries and Martin Henson is a Yorkshire based sports photographer specializing in cycle race images and supplier of top quality photographic prints.. I do not call the above mentionred printers "hobbyist, what I am saying is printers of this type will give and probably better those from labs UNDER YOUR OWN CONTROL, yes I do choose to spend part of my time printing and enjoy it, you say print experts at labs, if my output is not EXPERT then I might as well not sell, but it is and I have confidence in selling and sales to prove that, its all a matter of work flow and how you want to manage that flow, if I where having to print hundreds a day then home printing would not be practical, for me and photogs who specialize in a particular area of photography in a smaller way then printing your own is a completion of your work and complete control from start to finish, if i need any special type of print that's requested I can get it done anytime at a local lab. to say that printing without using labs is hobbyist is complete ignorance and put forward quite wrongly, one could argue that because you use labs then its because you cant print, but that would also be wrong to say, different work flow requires different approaches, its not hobbyist it requires skill and vision.

Martin

[martin-images]

Originally Posted by jfrancho

Let me put this "hobbyist" statement into perspective. I used to be a an aquarium hobbyist. I had four six foot display tanks (125-150 gal), two more four foot tanks (70 gal.) upstairs, as well as the few odd smaller tanks. In the basement I had over 2000 gals. of spawning, nursery, and growout tanks in my fishroom. I had a RO/DI unit capable of providing 300 gal./day of completely deionized water for use with my discus fish and the few marine tanks I maintained. I had more water analysis tools than the local water authority. I have not only bred discus successfully, but over 125 other species of Cichlids. Add in the few Anabantoids, Characins, Livebearers, Killis, and oddball catfish (Ancistris hoplygenys and various Corydoras sp.) that I've bred, and that number approaches 150. I've even had spawnings of some marine fish, specifically some blue devils and percula clowns, but wasn't able to get them past the larval stage. I've kept and propagated several species of coral, both soft and the calciferous "true" corals. Many of these fish that I raised were sold in quantities to satisfy the demands of the wholesale pet industry. I have written articles for club newsletters as well as popular aquarium magazines. I have met many people through my "expertise" in this area, and even been given fish by a famous fish collector.

All of this is way beyond the typical guy with a few tanks. I made a profit that offset all of the cost of all this equipment. But, I still consider it a hobby. Later, I worked in a importer/wholesaler of tropical fish. We had 1500 sq. ft. fishroom with hundreds of tanks. Fish came in, were conditioned for sale, sold, and distributed to pet shops all over the state. This was not a hobby. I visited a goldfish farm and a couple of tropical fish farms, and these were operations that made the wholesaler look like small potatoes. That was not a hobby.

Now, as for the quality of product, I would say all three had similar overall quality, although in my biased opinion, mine were the best. But I could only produce four or five species worth of sustainable stock. The fish farms had a larger variety, even then, they were specialists. Each farm and location had its strong species groups. The wholesaler on the other hand was able to consistently deliver hundreds of species for every type of customer on a consistent business.

I realize this is in no way related to photography, but the point is, despite using some sophisticated equipment to rear delicate livestock, my setup was still a hobbyist setup. Home printing can only provide a few products, whereas the pro lab can provide everything.

What all this jibberish about fish,thought this was about printers not a good comparison, anyway aired my thoughts in previous post, did you enjoy rearing your fish ??

[martin-images]

Originally Posted by aam1234

People cite "control" as a mean reason to print at home, but I'm not sure if that is entirely true. I mean, you can do all the processing you like then send it off. Perhaps the only control one loses is the type of paper, but that can be mitigated by using another print service that carries the paper you like.

Hope I'm not missing something here.

Now you way of the mark with that statement, if you print your own work especially in mono you have ultra fine control of contrast, tonal range, paper grade, [digital reproduced] tones, grain etc etc something that you WILL NOT get from a lab the same, and that is the reason I print my own fine art images, please think it out before you post.

[jfrancho]

Let me jump the fence here for a minute. Printing monochrome from digital files is one area of specialization that using a printer like Martin has that will probably net you more options than a pro lab. However, I don't just print B&W. In fact only about 10% of what I print is B&W. This goes back to what I said about offering a range of products to the customer.

[jfrancho]

Originally Posted by martin-images

What all this jibberish about fish,thought this was about printers not a good comparison, anyway aired my thoughts in previous post, did you enjoy rearing your fish ??

Martin, what I was saying that you can be an expert and have a ton of elaborate equipment, but this does not put you in the league where you can provide me with the services that a pro lab can offer. Neither will buying the equipment you have. Plain and simple. Your operation is more in linen a with a hobbyist setup, not an enterprise. I would compare what you are doing to the guy with the darkroom in his basement, making his own prints.

[martin-images]

Originally Posted by jfrancho

Let me jump the fence here for a minute. Printing monochrome from digital files is one area of specialization that using a printer like Martin has that will probably net you more options than a pro lab. However, I don't just print B&W. In fact only about 10% of what I print is B&W. This goes back to what I said about offering a range of products to the customer.

Martin Henson is a Yorkshire based sports photographer specializing in cycle race images and supplier of top quality photographic prints.

I also print in colour Frank, yes printing mono is like printing from the wet room, you could never get a better finished print than a hand printed BW from a skilled printer and many of theses did and do there own because the lab cant visualise what you are after, it applied then and applies now in the digital era