Is this acceptable photography?

[xxloverxx]

Originally Posted by HighMark Adventures

Well I will probably not make any friends on this topic but I disagree with the general census here. Could I be as in your face as he is, not likely. But I do like his style for capturing people naturally in the streets and not the fake oh hey he is taking my picture lets smile/pose bs.

Comment made about personal space, cmon did you watch the video, did you see how crowded it was when he was walking. Walking the streets of any large city is a mute point once you leave your door. He was not infringing on anybody`s quite time. He never chased anybody down an alley to get their pic, he never crept up on anybody who was buy themselves.He is a lot less intrusive on personnal space then hmm bums wanting change, aggressive street vendors, or that relious guy trying to enforce his beleifs upon you. If when walking the streets and I only had to deal with him for that split second in my"perssonal space" for the day I will take it. Another comment made about his flash and possible epileptic attack, seriously man cmon. Also I really don`t see the comparison to what he is doing as compared to the papparazzi.

+1

One day, I'd like to do a bit of photography just like him…I really wonder where he gets the "courage" to just walk right up to people with such a short lens and flash. I usually shoot with a 50mm from a bit further away without flash.

I don't think he was intruding on anyone's personal space…I'm not sure personal space in such a crowded place even applies.

I especially like how he hates people smiling for those photos - I'm very much like that as well.

If someone were to hold a camera right up to my face, even with a flash, I'd just ignore them; my theory being that on the street, don't expect to have any privacy at all; no matter how quiet it seems, don't even assume for a moment that someone's not gonna walk around the corner with a camera (ergo people telling me to treat others as I would like to be treated doesn't really say much to me, as I wouldn't care in the slightest if someone took a photo of me in the street; I accept that it's legal & just get on with life)

[coalcliff]

Good post Rense.

the debate about photographers rights, and those of people going about their business in a public space is healthy. I wonder how long the photographer would last in China or elsewhere with his manners and attitude.

I am amazed that he has lasted til his 60's!

[aam1234]

Originally Posted by coalcliff

I am amazed that he has lasted til his 60's!

I bet if does his thing in another place than NY the reaction (and his health) will be different.

[xxloverxx]

Originally Posted by coalcliff

Good post Rense.

the debate about photographers rights, and those of people going about their business in a public space is healthy. I wonder how long the photographer would last in China or elsewhere with his manners and attitude.

I am amazed that he has lasted til his 60's!

I think in HK he'd get a lot of threats to call the police and get yelled at a bit, but the law would still be on his side. In mainland China it'd be different as there's often a lot more violence over there.

[erozier2]

Originally Posted by Athena

In general my feelings for him and his style after watching the video can be summed up with the words "obnoxious" or "annoying"

Agreed, but then that's how I would sum up each of my experiences in New York City. While I don't agree with the rudeness this guy is displaying I don't see it as being significantly different than a typical coastal experience, so I imagine it's more or less acceptable there.

Now if he were to try this in Chicago, Indianapolis, or Kansas City I think he'd get cuffed and get a free cab ride to the precinct (and deserve it).

Edit: As a note, I do a fair amount of photography of people on the street. But I do it by walking up, handing them my business card, and asking if they don't mind if I take their photo. I've never been told "No", and I always have them give me their e-mail and share the photo with them.

[xxloverxx]

Originally Posted by erozier2

Agreed, but then that's how I would sum up each of my experiences in New York City. While I don't agree with the rudeness this guy is displaying I don't see it as being significantly different than a typical coastal experience, so I imagine it's more or less acceptable there.

Now if he were to try this in Chicago, Indianapolis, or Kansas City I think he'd get cuffed and get a free cab ride to the precinct (and deserve it).

Why, is street photography illegal in those areas?

[erozier2]

Originally Posted by xxloverxx

Why, is street photography illegal in those areas?

No, but what he is doing is not normal in the Midwest. Manners matter quite a bit out here, and what he's doing might be considered disturbing the peace or harassment as this sort of behavior wouldn't go unnoticed.

My wife (a coastie) get's looks for doing stuff out here that is considered par for the course on the East Coast, but is unbelievably rude by midwestern standards.

[xxloverxx]

Hmm, I think street photography will always be rude in some way or the other.

[freddepp]

Originally Posted by xxloverxx

I think in HK he'd get a lot of threats to call the police and get yelled at a bit, but the law would still be on his side. In mainland China it'd be different as there's often a lot more violence over there.

Exactly. Some posters think a model release is required. Public sidewalk is public domain. I've had the police called on me several times now. That was for shooting buildings (mostly homes). Sometimes people are in frame. Cops arrive say hi and have been polite, so far anyway. Ask are you the one shooting pictures (camera in hand - duh) and I say yes. Then they say have a nice day. Some explain they have respond to all calls to 911, others say "as long as you're on public property doing the shooting". Of course I'm now known in my own neighborhood by the police.

Well I'll be 61 myself soon. To see me, you wouldn't think threat. Did some shooting at the zoo. Now there was some question as to public domain there. Some dirty looks shooting the carousel (children around), but no problems. Of course I explained to the zoo empolyoee operating the attraction that I was doing a photo essay....

[Gna]

Originally Posted by gsk

Is it really legal? Since his style is to go up into your face and take a photo, I bet you could cause him some trouble and say he took your photo without a model release contract signed.

Model releases and copyrights pertain to the publishing and/or selling of a photo. The act of taking a photo has nothing to do with model releases or copyrights!

[xxloverxx]

Originally Posted by Gna

Model releases and copyrights pertain to the publishing and/or selling of a photo. The act of taking a photo has nothing to do with model releases or copyrights!

Wasn't there a story about judge ages ago who threw a case out of court because photos of people without model releases were published as fine art?

Apparently for fine art you don't need model releases, which might explain Henri Cartier-Bresson's images being published like they were?

[Gna]

Originally Posted by xxloverxx

+1

One day, I'd like to do a bit of photography just like him…

If you take my picture like that, prepare to accidentally meet my fist. When you startle people unpredictable things happen!
Wanna chance your fine gear and health on it?

[xxloverxx]

Originally Posted by freddepp

Exactly. Some posters think a model release is required. Public sidewalk is public domain. I've had the police called on me several times now. That was for shooting buildings (mostly homes). Sometimes people are in frame. Cops arrive say hi and have been polite, so far anyway. Ask are you the one shooting pictures (camera in hand - duh) and I say yes. Then they say have a nice day. Some explain they have respond to all calls to 911, others say "as long as you're on public property doing the shooting". Of course I'm now known in my own neighborhood by the police.

Well I'll be 61 myself soon. To see me, you wouldn't think threat. Did some shooting at the zoo. Now there was some question as to public domain there. Some dirty looks shooting the carousel (children around), but no problems. Of course I explained to the zoo empolyoee operating the attraction that I was doing a photo essay....

I suppose age does have an effect on how people "see" you, and me being quite young, they often see me as a threat (a threat carrying a leather sling bag, a Nikon FM, 50 1.4 and occasionally a 135 3.5 or 36-72 )

Also, your shooting buildings is completely different to shooting people - in your case, people being in the photo isn't something you can easily control. For the type of photography I do (and the kind of photography seen as a threat (I call BS)), where the person is the subject, it's different. But I'm sure if someone called the police they'd still tell me it was alright.
At least I think it'd be alright…I once saw someone with an M6TTL and 35 2.0 shooting in Central (quite possibly the busiest area in HK (obviously more police there than in most other places)) and he got no trouble.

[xxloverxx]

Originally Posted by Gna

If you take my picture like that, prepare to accidentally meet my fist. When you startle people unpredictable things happen!
Wanna chance your fine gear and health on it?

As a 2nd dan taekwondo instructor with an almost indestructible F4 and FM, I accept your challenge…

…actually I'll borrow my grandpa's medium format cameras just for added safety

Health? What health?

[Ed Shapiro]

Well folks- Thank the good Lord that this (North America and many other places) are not Communist China. People who remain within the law are free to do what they please. If street photography is not your game or agree with your taste- so be it. It is the street photographers of the world who have recorded history and that can be a tough line of work. People do all kind of things, perhaps some of the can be rude or overly concerned about a photographer taking their picture in a public place.

When I was a kid, just getting starting off in photography as a hobby, I (perhaps by accident) became a "street photographer. My motives were simple; I wanted to make images if things or persons that impressed me so that I could share those experience with others or relive the experience at any time just by looking at my pictures. I took pictures in school and was admonished for that until they asked me for year book contributions. My subjects ranged from rusty fire hydrants to pretty girls walking down the street- even homeless folks.

Well- I did not become a street photographer, instead, I went into formal portraiture and wedding photography, however, my experience on the street helped my to overcome any shyness I had and enabled me to raise a camera to my eye and work among people in a broad range of situations. I have no problem with heads of state, VIPs of any description, weddings and events or any scenario where people are involved.

Needless to say, common sense and kindness toward others helps- frightening people is not my forte- people sense that and that's why I never got into trouble. Call it body language or approach or what ever you want but it works. We all have to remember that there are cultures where making images of people are forbidden or looked upon as some sort of "soul removal" and that attitudes are different in various parts of even free democracies.

By the way- I was raised in the Bedford-Stuyvesant section of Brooklyn and many of my early "clients" on the street were gang members and tough guys. They actually used to give me money for their pictures. The were not especially concerned about the police because the police already had all of their "pictures".

Ed

[Gna]

Originally Posted by xxloverxx

As a 2nd dan taekwondo instructor with an almost indestructible F4 and FM, I accept your challenge…

…actually I'll borrow my grandpa's medium format cameras just for added safety [/QUOTE]

Let's see how your indestructible F4 and FM, and your grandpa's medium format cameras handle 9mm full metal jackets at point blank range.

Health? What health?

Indeed, after that adventure.

[xxloverxx]

Originally Posted by Gna

…actually I'll borrow my grandpa's medium format cameras just for added safety

Let's see how your indestructible F4 and FM, and your grandpa's medium format cameras handle 9mm full metal jackets at point blank range.



Indeed, after that adventure.[/QUOTE]

Now that would be a different scenario, as in HK, guns aren't allowed and police stop and ask questions if you take out so much as a butter knife on the street for no apparent reason

[xxloverxx]

Originally Posted by Ed Shapiro

Well folks- Thank the good Lord that this (North America and many other places) are not Communist China. People who remain within the law are free to do what they please. If street photography is not your game or agree with your taste- so be it. It is the street photographers of the world who have recorded history and that can be a tough line of work. People do all kind of things, perhaps some of the can be rude or overly concerned about a photographer taking their picture in a public place.

When I was a kid, just getting starting off in photography as a hobby, I (perhaps by accident) became a "street photographer. My motives were simple; I wanted to make images if things or persons that impressed me so that I could share those experience with others or relive the experience at any time just by looking at my pictures. I took pictures in school and was admonished for that until they asked me for year book contributions. My subjects ranged from rusty fire hydrants to pretty girls walking down the street- even homeless folks.

Well- I did not become a street photographer, instead, I went into formal portraiture and wedding photography, however, my experience on the street helped my to overcome any shyness I had and enabled me to raise a camera to my eye and work among people in a broad range of situations. I have no problem with heads of state, VIPs of any description, weddings and events or any scenario where people are involved.

Needless to say, common sense and kindness toward others helps- frightening people is not my forte- people sense that and that's why I never got into trouble. Call it body language or approach or what ever you want but it works. We all have to remember that there are cultures where making images of people are forbidden or looked upon as some sort of "soul removal" and that attitudes are different in various parts of even free democracies.

By the way- I was raised in the Bedford-Stuyvesant section of Brooklyn and many of my early "clients" on the street were gang members and tough guys. They actually used to give me money for their pictures. The were not especially concerned about the police because the police already had all of their "pictures".

Ed

Ed, some people in my family (especially my grandpa, who seems to be about the same age as you) can tell stories similar to yours, but I think the way photographers are seen has changed as the years passed by…

[erozier2]

Originally Posted by Ed Shapiro

Needless to say, common sense and kindness toward others helps- frightening people is not my forte- people sense that and that's why I never got into trouble. Call it body language or approach or what ever you want but it works. We all have to remember that there are cultures where making images of people are forbidden or looked upon as some sort of "soul removal" and that attitudes are different in various parts of even free democracies.

Definitely. My qualms with this fellow is entirely his attitude and lack of social skills. I personally love to take photos of random people on the street, especially street performers, and people who are in costume, or dressed up.

The difference is, I don't ambush them. I either give them my business card and ask them up front, or after the photo (if it is a candid), give them my business card, show them the image on my camera and offer to send it to them. If they seem to have a problem, I offer to delete it.

I've never had someone be anything but flattered and excited.

Courtesy and manners get you a long way.

[Joves]

Well he is the type as to why many people want to see restrictions on photography. Just my thought. And in my neck of the woods he would get his arse kicked.