Selling Portraits or Scared by all the cheap prices

[Rodeoshooter]

Let me start this post by saying I don't want to make people mad but I have to approach this very sad and important subject. I hope to get a very lively discussion going on this subject. Maybe we can change some of the issues facing Professional Photographers by broaching this subject! After all this is supposed to be a learning forum!

I know not everyone is a full time working Professional Photographer. I know most of you want to be a Professional Photographer in the future. Well, lets talk about pricing!
It is probably the single most important business decision you will make as a Professional Photographer. So lets pull our heads out of the sand and talk about it.

I have been going out and looking at the different websites of some of the people here on the Camel. I have to say as a Professional Photographer with 25 years experience, I am really shocked and embarrassed by the DIRT CHEAP PRICES people are selling their photos for on their websites. $0.24 for a 4 x 6 photograph? What is going on? Now I am not trying to call anyone names but pay attention people. It is kinda like the "You must be a redneck" comments from Jeff Foxworthy!

I don't know where you get your pricing ideas from but:

"if you have 4 x 6 photos on your site for less than a dollar you are Cheaper than Dirt".

"If you have 4 x 6 photos on your site for less than five dollars you are Dirt Cheap".

Again I am not trying to make anyone mad but how in the Sam Hell can you make a profit much less a living at these prices? Does anyone think about this?

I know I am on a rant but lets get real people. $4 per gallon for gas and you are selling 4 x 6 prints for TWENTY FOUR CENTS! It costs you more for gas to go pickup the photos then the profit you think you are making?

First of all, lets get a head count. How many people sell 4 x 6 prints? Where did you get the idea that 4 x 6 prints should ever leave the door. If you are selling 4 x 6 prints you are selling the same thing your clients (or the people you want as clients) can buy at Wally World or where ever you buy or print your photos. When you go to a store to buy something do you often look at the merchandise and think "damn I can buy that same thing at Wally World and put it in a clear plastic bag"?

Most Professional labs I have dealt with through out the years sold 4 x 5 or 5 x 5 photos as a standard size. This means if you were not shooting Mamiya RB67 you were most likely shooting a Hasselblad or a Bronica. The format was different than your customers would get from the photo store. Different is good! You can charge more for different.
I have a question for all of you! If I, as your customer can go to Wally World and get prints made for nineteen ($.019) cents each, why should I pay you twenty-four cents for the same prints? Especially when I see you picking them up while I am picking my own print up? The answer is: (Drum roll)

I shouldn't! More importantly, YOU SHOULDN"T!

I don't know what everyone does for a living but if you are going to be CHEAPER THAN DIRT get the hell out of my profession so I can make a living.

One of the things Professional Photographers have always fought about was the pricing that the rank amateurs offer. The pros have always said the amateurs don't know what they are doing and the prices reflect that.

Ok, so what should you charge. Well let's look at it. What is profit? Profit is defined as "money earned after expenses are subtracted from revenue". How do I figure profit? Well I take all of the expenses:

Camera bought in 2008 - $500

Lens for camera 2008 - $400

Ad in yellow pages - $80 per month or $960 per year.

Website - $200

Telephone - $45 per month or $540 per year

Office space in home - Figure total square feet and divide by the amount of office sq feet. For example if you have a 1400 square foot home and your office is 15 x 20 feet you are using 300 square feet of the home or 21.42 percent of the home is the office. So if your house payment is $1275.00 per month your office is costing you $224.92 per month or $2699.04 per year.

Automobile - $350 per month or $4200 per year. You happen to use the car only 12% of the time for business so writing off the mileage should be the best way.

Insurance - $1400.00 for the car, $1000.00 for the business, $575 for the house. Again take the percentage and use the percentage for your expenses.

About $6613.04 per year for just the rough estimate. Divide that by 261 (52 weekends is 104 days off a year) working days a year so you have to earn $25 per day profit to pay the bills. This of course is taking into account that you are rich enough to pay for food, clothing and all of the other incidentals such as health insurance and diapers for the kids.

Enough of that boring stuff. So lets say you do a portrait session and you charge $30 for the session fee. Great, you drive 30 miles for the session and get 15 miles per gallon. You take the photos and go home after spending 2 hours with the client. You are feeling great about the session. You spend another 3 hours processing the photos and have a couple you make some big adjustments to so you can show the client how good you are at your job. You then drive out to Wally World and order the proofs of the session. Not a good move but we can talk about it later. Wally World is 11.5 miles each way so you add 23 miles onto the session costs. Now you drive over to the clients house 6.2 miles each way and drop off the proofs. The client calls you a couple of days later and orders 4 - 4 x 6 prints at $0.75 each and an 8 x 10 of the really good one for $9.99. So you drive out to Wally World to order the prints. Again 11.5 miles each way and it takes you 1 hour because of the traffic.

Awesome you have the sale. Did you make a profit? I don't think so but let's look at it.

You drove 65.4 miles and it cost you 5.89 gallons of gas or $23.57 in gas. You make $17 per hour at your real job but here you only got $30 for the session and you spent $23.57 on gas leaving you with $6.43 out of the session fee. Of course we forgot to add in the sale price of the prints, let's see, 4 x .75 is $3.00 and the $9.99 makes the sale $12.99 so we have profit! Right? Do we? Oops we forgot to take out the .19 x 4 for the 4 x 6 prints and the $1.49 for the 8 x 10 so we have $2.25 gone as costs and $10.74 left as profit after the sale. Yippee we almost have a profit of $6.43 + $10.74 or $17.17 in profit. Wait, don't we have to pay ourselves for the time it took to do the job? We would make our boss pay us at our J.O.B. wouldn't we? Let's see $17 x 6 = $102.00 at the J.O.B. so what do we pay ourself? Well we only have $17.17 left. Hmmmmm, well if I cut my prices they might buy more and I would make more money, Right? Kind of like saying if I am losing $5 per widget then I just need to make more widgets.

If a print costs you $1.49 and you sell it for $9.99 you are not making a profit. You have to take all of the expenses you have listed above and figure how much you need to make a day to break even. You have to figure your wage, unless you work for free at your other job.

So, I guess the bottom line is how do we figure out how much to charge for our prints.

If you are interested ask me and we will discuss it!

[Jimmyz]

Here here!
People with insanely cheep prices destroy the business they say they love so much!

[felix.reichardt]

Who charges $0.24 for a 4 x 6 photograph? Give us the link ... or send me by PM.

[KellyL]

Although my prices are still low, I have clients that want 4x6 prints, and I sell them for $10.00. Do I get complaints? Yes, but I don't give it a second thought. I have tried to price my prints with the market here where I live. We have a top notch, highly decorated and awarded photographer in our area who has been crowned the top senior photographer in the nation at one time, and my prices are just pennies under him. I can't go higher, not until I show improvement. I am working diligently to improve both my skill and knowledge, but it takes time. I have seen suggestions where some charge $85.00 for an 8x10. I charge $20.00. This is in keeping with the major studios here in our area. I will be pushing my prices up this fall...but I have to do so incrementally.

I have seen some abismal pricing as well, and I agree, cheap prints do not allow anybody an opportunity to make a living.

[Mr. Pickles]

We don't need to be posting a link about who charges that. And one thing to consider is that some people get paid a rate to be there and take images. The images are then sold. If one get $1000 to shoot a 3 hour event, and then charges $10 for a 4x6, I'd be a pissed off print buyer.

If you get paid by the print, then a much higher 4x6 price is what is required. But there is no law or rule stating what to charge and why....

[KellyL]

I did read an article about how digital is changing the industry and how professional photographers need to change as well...thinking about how they can sell their skill and not rely on print prices for their income. I will see if I can find that article. It was put out by one of the pro labs.

[Mr. Pickles]

You can fight low print prices all you want, but in the end, you're gonna lose the fight. Way to many people think they can take pictures, and judging by the cameras available, and how everybody has one and thinks they are experts at photography and such, you aren't gonna win the battle.

[jfrancho]

I don't sell cheap prints, but I also don't care if I become a millionaire from print sales. Its a part time venture for me, and I really do not care if I am "ruining" some overpriced pro's business. I don't sell 4x6's, but 8x10's start at $35. The part time/weekend warriors aren't your problem here, its Target, Walmart, KMart, etc. with their $9.99 sitting and free 8x10 deals that are ruining it for you. They are the "pros" that are devaluing "professional photography."

[Not4wood]

Both Mr Pickles and John are correct with there statements. You cant fight this or truthfully even argue the point.

At this stage of the game, with all of the amatures that have good quality camaras that can make even better pictures, the best thing a Professional Photographer can do is try to be that much more Professional.

I also feel that this whole thread might be better moved over to the discussion board where a whole lot of working Pro's might see it better including the Wedding Pro's.

As for the Professional Photographer, lighting and posing will keep the distance between what people are willing to pay for. An amature will not bother to pose there subject nor will they go out and use more then one light to shoot something. Working a Party or Event a Professional will have two people and two lights being used. This will enable the end result to be that much better and also as a saleable product that much more to brag about.

Priceing?

Instead of selling just a hand full of prints with an individual price you have to also include the shooting session and make the whole package to include the print package with an additional charge in case the customer would like to add more prints as well. You cant think of the Processing Lab as your competition, its not. They dont go out and shoot that Party or Wedding that you just spent 8 hours on. An hourly or multiple hourly rate would be better to suit you and also include a couple of prints with this price.

[felix.reichardt]

Originally Posted by Mr. Pickles

We don't need to be posting a link about who charges that.

Not meant to be like that. I just wonder how a pro can be afraid by people who charge 0.24 per print.

[Inked Photography]

It all comes down to demographics. I don't care how good you are. There are people out there looking for the cheapest price. They will go to the next photographer if your not it. As far as your talents. People who know what top quality images should be will pay fo them. Why do you think Wal-Mart's and other stores have photo booths at such cheap prices. One to get people in the door. Two because they want to hit the low income market. Do they get our qwuality work. No, but people will pay what they can afford.
Everyone expects higher prices for weddings, anniversary, family pics, ect. That's the bulk of money makers for us. But if some average income single mom of three wants pics of her kids. She's going elswhere. Not always. But most of the time.

[Rodeoshooter]

Originally Posted by Jimmyz

Here here!
People with insanely cheep prices destroy the business they say they love so much!

Jimmyz,

You are RIGHT! The insanely cheap prices are destroying the business. I am selling rodeo 5 x 7's for $26 and people bitch about it. My family 5 x 7's are $64 up to $250.00. I live in Spokane where there is a photography college and the students come out wanting to give the farm away for a dollar.

That is my point and I am finding out that there seem to be a lot of people who are afraid to approach the subject and talk about it.

This is a forum where we can discuss anything dealing with photography. So lets start with the pricing.

Jimmyz, here is some Karma for having the stones to start talking about it.