Selling Portraits or Scared by all the cheap prices

[ladyphotog]

I don't use my real name because I am a cop's wife. Like it or not, that is the way it is. This obviously isn't the place for me, so you win Brian. As far as using my husband as a threat, I didn't, if you want to take it that way, go ahead, he is the one that got irritated at your posts to me. It is also 'not kosher' to call out officer's families if you know it and work with other LEO's. Bye bye!

[brian.austin]

Originally Posted by ladyphotog

I don't use my real name because I am a cop's wife. Like it or not, that is the way it is. This obviously isn't the place for me, so you win Brian. As far as using my husband as a threat, I didn't, if you want to take it that way, go ahead, he is the one that got irritated at your posts to me. It is also 'not kosher' to call out officer's families if you know it and work with other LEO's. Bye bye!

Uh...look back at your posts: you said it, not me. I deliberately DIDN'T say it, even though you've mentioned it elsewhere on the Internet and anyone with access to Google can find it.

[Songman45]

Photography is one of the few activities which can be undertaken as a hobby or a profession. You'll probably never see a hobbiest doctor or lawyer. Professional Photography is an unregulated, unlicensed occupation; all that is required to be a Professional is to claim the name. If one cannot come to terms with this he'd best not go into the business. What you cannot accept you may have to tolerate. If you believe that Professional Photography should have standards and regulaton, petition your law makers. We could see those titles and initials at the end of one's signature mean something different than accreditaion from a trade association. This does not diminish my rescpect for the PPA and its state level affiliates. Membership is is not required and they have no authority beyond the scope of membership. Loss of acreditation will not prevent the continuation of business.

A working professional is in control of what he decides to undertake. Knowing the risks and pitfalls is a part of any business. There will be all levels of photographers around forever. There will be up and coming pros, amatures, and novices. Not everyone who carries a camera is seeking to be a pro and not everyone who snaps a picture wants to be better. Whether you are a studio owner specializing in portraiture, an action sports shooter, or an events guy you are going to have compitition and that compition is not limited to professionals. You will go up against annoying snapshooters, unethical wannabes and bottom feeders. This is a fact of life in the business and will be.

For several years the company I work for had a near monopoly. Very few photographers, including the pros offered the immediate gratification of on-site proofing and printing. The state of the art had not developed yet to the point where equipment was affordable and abundant. Technology has put much more capable equipment in the hands of snapshooters. The gap between professional grade equipment and toys is much narrower now than say a medium format and a 110 pocket camera. This is not the fault of the consumer. Both the pro and the amature has been afforded much nicer equipment at more affordable costs and both have taken advantage of these advances.

We pros might not consider the hobby shooter as compition, directly. We should. Any dollar being spent on someone elses work is a dollar not being spent on our own. In a matter of moments a person can snap up images, create a hosting account, and have a web presence and go into business. It takes only access to the internet and a USB connection. A kid with a lap-top or palm top device can stop off at the electronics store or wal-mart shoot his first picture ever and have it on the internet for sale in less than an afternoon.

No, these instant or fly-by-night operators cannot offer the additional services of a professional and they may not know a thing about what they are doing. The people who purchase don't care about those things. A shot of your kid hitting a homerun, scoring a touchdown, staying in the saddle for the full 8 is the kind of picture that people want to own regardless of quality or what the photographer invested in getting it. All momma wants is that scrap book page contriubtion. She could care less about fast glass or number of focusing points or noiseless high ISO resolution.

In summation: Before you stamp your feet, pound your fists and scream that life is unfare - take a look around and fully understand all the risks and challanges involved. We may well have come to a point where a professional photogrpaher is not necessary nor desirable for some of the things that in past times was. When a snap shot will do, don't waste energy draggin out the big guns. Today, that snap shot is far better than it used to be. There is no disgrace is turning down an invitation because there is no profit in it. You aren't by that saying, "I can't make a profit". "I can't" implies you lack some ability. If the potential of gain does not outweigh the risk of loss, skip it. Learn all the things that chip away at your profit and decide in advance.

If you get beat up by the bullies on the playground once its okay to cry a little. After that, coming home from the playground crying about the bullies makes you dumb or a sissy.

[Harry]

There's a whole lot of really good marketing information that everyone is putting out in this thread. I always wonder why telling someone that they are selling their prints too cheap always equates to being afraid of them putting you out of business.

You can price your prints however you want, if they aren't paying your bills then you can give them away for nothing. If they are paying your bills, then you need to price accordingly.

If you are selling your prints/services for money, whatever your price is will attract a certain clientelle. One of the big myths is that "If I raise my prices, I will lose customers." Of course at some point this is true. But, if you are doing a professional job you will begin attracting an entirely different level of customer.

One of the first things I noticed, way back, was that when my prices were dirt cheap, people took advantage of my good nature. The more you give away, the more they want. Those are not the customers that I want.

You know what? If I give away wedding ceremonies for $395 a pop, Gary Fong doesn't lose a dime.

[Ellbee99]

Originally Posted by Harry

There's a whole lot of really good marketing information that everyone is putting out in this thread. I always wonder why telling someone that they are selling their prints too cheap always equates to being afraid of them putting you out of business.

You can price your prints however you want, if they aren't paying your bills then you can give them away for nothing. If they are paying your bills, then you need to price accordingly.

If you are selling your prints/services for money, whatever your price is will attract a certain clientelle. One of the big myths is that "If I raise my prices, I will lose customers." Of course at some point this is true. But, if you are doing a professional job you will begin attracting an entirely different level of customer.

One of the first things I noticed, way back, was that when my prices were dirt cheap, people took advantage of my good nature. The more you give away, the more they want. Those are not the customers that I want.

You know what? If I give away wedding ceremonies for $395 a pop, Gary Fong doesn't lose a dime.

I agree, well said.

[Not4wood]

Originally Posted by Harry

If you are selling your prints/services for money, whatever your price is will attract a certain clientelle. One of the big myths is that "If I raise my prices, I will lose customers." Of course at some point this is true. But, if you are doing a professional job you will begin attracting an entirely different level of customer.

One of the first things I noticed, way back, was that when my prices were dirt cheap, people took advantage of my good nature. The more you give away, the more they want. Those are not the customers that I want.

You know what? If I give away wedding ceremonies for $395 a pop, Gary Fong doesn't lose a dime.

Out of almost everything mentioned in this glorious thread, this statemant has to be one of the most important ones posted.

Yes, there is a saturation point where raising your prices will make your clients go elsewhere but it also cuts out the others that will try and take advantage. There going to be there no matter what, and if you let them then its also your fault as well. You have to set a line in the ground, yes, thats also flexible but to set a standard of what you will not let a client get away with.

I find it easier in my mind, if I make myself an empoyee or just a worker and I leave my Manager/Owner Hat at home and this way I have to and it makes it easier to follow company polocy. Sorry, the Boss set the prices is probably the best argument of all. I dont tell my clients this, but its my mindset when I'm in the field. I also use this for my Carpentry work as well.

[Rodeoshooter]

Guys and Gals,

Just returned from 3 days on the road at rodeos. I want to take a moment to thank all that were involved with this thread. I hope the comments have created interest in both points of view regardless of whom they came from and what side their views represented. I guess we will all have to agree to disagree and part as comrades. It was not my intent to create a rift or make anyone mad enough to leave the Camel.

BTW, I ran into a retired power plant worker who said "I am retired so I don't need to charge for my work" this weekend. He was charging $12.00 for his rodeo 8x10's, which is well below the average price for rodeo 8x10's. My only question to him was then why charge at all? Can you tell I don't buy his story?

Ed, I am sorry if this thread caused you or anyone any problems. As one vet to another, I appreciated hearing your opinions and reading your views. I understand your opinion of the "handles" and can only tell you, everyone can see who I am as I have my website posted with my real name and address, as well as links to my studio site. I am not hiding from anyone I am simply stating what I enjoy the most in photography.

Brian, I can appreciate your fire in defending your position. I still respect your opinions as well as your work, but we will have to agree to disagree on this matter.

To all the rest who commented, Thank you! I do appreciate your input whether I agree with it or not it is food for thought for all of us.

Al Berger
Pro Rodeo Pix - Pro Rodeo Pix
Cunningham Studio of Quality Photography - Cunningham Studio & Design Images in Spokane Washington
509-924-1700

[Pony]

Thanks,Rodeoshooter,for starting this thread.I know that many have viewed this post with interest and will likely return to it,so I'll post an observation.Most of the photographer websites I have visited don't educate the customer on the products they sell.Perhaps they think they can do this when the customer, " enters the door." If quality of product were emphasized more on their sites,not just image size and price,customers will see the difference and make a more informed decision.We who are professionals must also teach the public otherwise we can only blame ourselves for their false perceptions.

[Mark McCall]

I've often wondered how photographers make the connection between their own prices and someone else's.

None of my competitors' price lists affect me. Mine does not affect them.

I know several photographers who feel newbies with cheap prices are bringing down the market.
I heard that 10 years ago too.
Didn't happen then, doesn't happen now.

For every product or service, there is a good, better, best. Price usually dictates which is which. None can survive without the other.
Every level services a different client. A Chevy customer will not buy a Cadillac. The reverse is also true.

What level do you want to be? The beauty is....YOU decide where you want to be, not your clients.

[kgphoto]

Hey Mark,
While I agree with most of what you have posted here now and before, I wonder if the market hasn't changed some and the internet makes some of this different?

The principal point here was "silly cheap" print prices posted "right next to yours" impact people's perception of value.

I totally get educating the client as to the difference and then servicing those clients who recognize, want and respect the difference, but don't you think they are influenced just a little bit?

[Mark McCall]

Originally Posted by kgphoto

I totally get educating the client as to the difference and then servicing those clients who recognize, want and respect the difference, but don't you think they are influenced just a little bit?

No, I don't.
A cheaper photographer will most certainly display work of less quality than the higher priced photographer.

Also, there's the "Emporer's New Clothes" Syndrome. If it's more expensive, the brain tells the client it must be better.
Use that to your advantage.

Originally Posted by kgphoto

The principal point here was "silly cheap" print prices posted "right next to yours" impact people's perception of value.

EXACTLY.
You'll be perceived as a completely different level of product than Joe Bob's Photography who sells $10 8x10's.
Use implied value to your advantage.

I don't care what XYZ Photography charges...because it has absolutely no impact on me whatsoever.
If I can't make the living I want to make in photography, that's MY fault, not XYZ's.

Granted...I'm not suggesting everyone go out and charge $10.00 an 8x10.
But I would encourage anyone to educate themselves in marketing and sales. That's where the money is...not in creating the images, but selling them.

[Songman45]

Originally Posted by Mark McCall

No, I don't.
A cheaper photographer will most certainly display work of less quality than the higher priced photographer.

Also, there's the "Emporer's New Clothes" Syndrome. If it's more expensive, the brain tells the client it must be better.
Use that to your advantage.


EXACTLY.
You'll be perceived as a completely different level of product than Joe Bob's Photography who sells $10 8x10's.
Use implied value to your advantage.

I don't care what XYZ Photography charges...because it has absolutely no impact on me whatsoever.
If I can't make the living I want to make in photography, that's MY fault, not XYZ's.

Granted...I'm not suggesting everyone go out and charge $10.00 an 8x10.
But I would encourage anyone to educate themselves in marketing and sales. That's where the money is...not in creating the images, but selling them.

Let's make sure I understand this line of thinking:

I'm part of a team of photographers asked by management to photograph the competitors at a hunter jumper horse show. There are three rings running competitions and there are four members on our team. The show is 8 hours from our home base and will run Fri, Sat and Sun. We've got a photogrpaher at each ring and a technician/sales person in our phtot trailer. In the trailer are 4 viewing stations and a work station, two printers and a CD burner. Each photographer is carrying a D2Xs and a 70-200 2.8 and two 4 gig CF cards. We have either driven to the event in a diesel pusher motor home for sleeping quarters OR we have pulled the 16' trailer with a diesel pickup and will stay at a nearby motel. Fuel costing what it does now, that is actually a consideration. The team members are going to be paid a daily rate. Equipment not withstanding we are in the hole considerably before the show ever begins.

We are going to make every attempt to photograph every competitor in every round for the entire show. Within in an hour of any given compition round the compeitior will be able to see the images in the trailer. Historically we know that only 10% of the participants will purchase anything. Less than 50% will even look. We just do not know who they are, so we shoot them all. We'll offer prints as well as images on CDs with a special break for all a competitior's images on a CD. The images will also be uploaded to a hosting site for ordering at a later date and at a substantial additonal cost. And we begin the weekend.

Do you think our compition is another set-up anything like ours? NO! Some cat in a photographers vest with a business card conspecutively pinned to his hat, armed with an EOS or D300 and a kit lens, carefully taking note of the competitor numbers he's shooting is banging away. He's the innocent hobbiest. He's not there to earn a living, just scarf a buck. He's not selling anything, really. He's only shooting for fun but he does put his stuff on a web site at a non-profit price. He'd be just flattered as heck if a few people looked at his offering. Maybe he has no real expense in being there. He doesn't need money, his day job paid for the camera and his hobby. His image might even be good just under priced. Some of these folks might even conveniently have a laptop and a printer set-up out in the parking lot. This hurts our business.

This is not a case of missing a wedding cuz Uncle Joe Fred would go do it cheaper with his pro-sumer rig. So, you missed a $300 paying wedding you don't do those anyway. And you weren't out the expense of going and producing to have uncle Joe Fred co-shooting.

Pricing does not always set us apart. This is action sport photography the results are not judged on the artistic flair, just as long as the action is caught. So tell me again how the price of my product have nothing to do with whether or not I get all the sales available? Oh, and the scabs? Get used to them. They shouldn't be there and should not be allowed. They are not a priprity to anyone except us and making a wave at all might just prevent our being invited to the managements next event.