Selling Portraits or Scared by all the cheap prices

[richardpcrowe]

You are covering some very good points but, your smiley faces drove me batty and I didn't finish reading your post.

[brian.austin]

Originally Posted by richardpcrowe

You are covering some very good points but, your smiley faces drove me batty and I didn't finish reading your post.

Can't please anyone here, can I?

[Songman45]

We have people here from all sorts of backgrounds. Those who have worked for big boxes, major chains and even single operations have seen approaches and gimicks for sales. I think this would be a good place to kick around some of those things, the good ponts and bad. It might set some weels to turning for the overall betterment.

I believe it was PCI who pre-printed packages. Sittings were shot in a strict sequence so that the prints came out enlarged pose to size. The sales booth had a back wall with afixed frames. Slots in the tops allowed the prints to be dropped in. Customers were shown the final images and could take home enlargements on the spot. Of course additonal re-orders were available. Sort of a good idea with the immediacy and all and a great way to demonstrate wall arrangements. On the bad side, those who couldn't buy the whole $300 (early 80's prices) ball of wax knew the pics of their beloved were going to be destroyed.

I was never a fan of the plain picture being printed in several enlargement sizes as "The Package" and the pretty background / effect pose coming at a premium extra expense. Just plain bad customer handling. Furthermore I never liked the package consisting of a single pose. I still see this often in senior offerings. Gang printers probably made these popular more with photographers than with customers. Nothing wrong with getting a couple of 4X5's or some wallets included with a 5X7 to boost paper efficiency. In the digital realm, we don't handle negatives. I know there is post processing involved. I'd rather up the cost and offer customers the variety they choose in poses for packages. This was a selling point for Olan Mills the only limit was on wallet prints which had to be ordred in 6's generally sold in dozens with an option to split.

Show-big Sell-big was a buzz phrase for a long time. A lot of photographers projected images on a 20X24 or 16X20 screen. I haven't seen an opaque projector in decades. How do we feel about this buzz from the past? We filled the studio with samples wall arrangements and framed table top arrangements. People often marveled at the 30X40 family portrait worked all the way down to 8X10s. We never made samples of knock-out shots, just good solid ones. It made the customer feel that much better about his own if they were exceptional and didn't shoot down sales if they weren't quite stellar.

We posted a "regular price list" but package price structures were dedicated to memory and built per customer. We used note pads to jot down the sizes and number of each. The retail total was recited, but the package price was writen down on the pad. I like that idea. You get a feel for where you are giong to start before making offerings. The customer doesn't feel like he's being force-fed a package or cookie cuttered. We never discussed enlargements until we had viewed proofs a while and talked about how they would be used.

Speaking of proofing. Some say never leave the customer. Some say let them have some privacy. Others say take a deposit and give em time to take the proofs and show them around. I like to excuse myself for a few moments then begin finding out what we are going to do. I believe in pre-selling at the camera and noting what interests the customer has it helps in pose selection and it helps at sales for additional offerings. I really have a tough time with proofs leaving. I'd rather schedule additonal appointments for viewing by other family members than chase down the proofs and trying to close again after the moment passes and the objections mount.

So if you aren't peddling .24 4X6's how do you handle proof viewing and closing sales?

[mcbit]

You keep me entertained.

[Inked Photography]

I'm an excellent driver....

[mcbit]

This was supposed to be an edit but got posted again.

Originally Posted by brian.austin

Can't please anyone here, can I?

You keep me entertained.

[Loa]

Hello Rodeoshooter,

I'm not even close to being a pro photographer, but I've read this thread through. I only have a few comments to add, the first one in the form of a metaphor: Ford Escorts are never going to kill BMW's business, like some posters have said using a lot more words.

As many others have said: if you're worried (for yourself or "the profession", whatever that could mean precisely) by 0.24$ 4X6, you either have a confidence issue, or you feel like you're not producing anything better than those 0.24$ prints. And I really doubt that you fall into that latter category.

Yet, judging by your tone thus far, you don't really sound like someone with a confidence problem either.

When you add the fact that different pricing schemes must be taken into account for determining adequate print cost...

I'm puzzled: I don't know what's your ultimate objective with this thread. You know that Escorts (uber cheap prints) won't harm BMW (professional photographers), I have no doubt that you're head and shoulders above Wallmart photography, you certainly don't lack confidence, and you know that there are as many pricing options as there are photographers.

What's up?

Loa

[Inked Photography]

K-Mart Sucks...

[Rodeoshooter]

Originally Posted by Loa

Hello Rodeoshooter,

I'm not even close to being a pro photographer, but I've read this thread through. I only have a few comments to add, the first one in the form of a metaphor: Ford Escorts are never going to kill BMW's business, like some posters have said using a lot more words.

As many others have said: if you're worried (for yourself or "the profession", whatever that could mean precisely) by 0.24$ 4X6, you either have a confidence issue, or you feel like you're not producing anything better than those 0.24$ prints. And I really doubt that you fall into that latter category.

Yet, judging by your tone thus far, you don't really sound like someone with a confidence problem either.

When you add the fact that different pricing schemes must be taken into account for determining adequate print cost...

I'm puzzled: I don't know what's your ultimate objective with this thread. You know that Escorts (uber cheap prints) won't harm BMW (professional photographers), I have no doubt that you're head and shoulders above Wallmart photography, you certainly don't lack confidence, and you know that there are as many pricing options as there are photographers.

What's up?

Loa

Loa,

I only wish you had walked in my shoes. If you had you would understand the people with the lack of confidence is all of the people who are charging $0.24 for prints. The majority of them are doing this because they lack the confidence to charge living wages. I started out in 1983 and charged $0.50 prices for 4x5's in 1983. All because I couldn't believe people would pay for my photos. That was a lack of confidence. I didn't have a support network where others who have re-invented the wheel could tell me not to re-invent the wheel. I didn't have photographers around me who would share knowledge. Yet, here we are 25 years later and people are now charging less now than the $0.50 I charged in 1983. DAH! Seems like they are going backwards.

In 1967 wedding 8x10's from the studio I now own were $10. Those were high prices back then. I see many photographers on the web charging less than that now for their 8x10s. I am hitting the road today for an event but I will post copies of the old prices next week when I get back.

Question. How long does it take to educate a photographer on pricing? I am beginning to think the answer is "You can't". I am beginning to see it is like telling a moth the flame will burn them. They (the photographer and the moth) won't listen because they haven't been burned yet.

I have a former employee who was hired on short notice (read night before) this past weekend because the bride claimed they the person they hired as a photographer dropped them at the last minute. My former employee keeps in touch with the photography community here in the area and had never heard of the photographer they had hired.

They told her they couldn't afford to hire a professional photographer for the wedding because they lacked funds. They offered her the $500.00 for the wedding photography that they had offered the other photographer. She did the wedding to help this bride out. She sent me some of the photos. The wedding party consisted of 8 attendants plus the bride and groom and ring bearer and flower girl. The size of the rock in the brides ring would go at least 1 carat. The bridal party all had their hair and makeup done prior to the wedding. The bridesmaids all had matching necklaces and live flowers. The bride's dress was stunning. My point is no expense was spared in the preparation of this wedding. Except for the Photography!

To these people photography had a diminished value. It wasn't important. If it had been important they would have a real "Professional Photographer" in the first place. Then they would not have been dumped the day before the wedding by some bozo who has no business ethics.

Loa, I can assure you I don't have low or a lack of confidence. Quite the opposite. I have even been called arrogant by some photographers. I am not arrogant by any means. I am self assured! I just happen to know I am very competent and accomplished in the world of photography. This is knowledge from years of experience. It amazes me how many people attempt to get into photography without experience or knowledge.

I believe it is the lack of self confidence and lack of knowledge on the part of photographers that leads to the cheap pricing. In order to have pricing options you have to have the knowledge to determine what is a good pricing strategy. If you look at the thread "Whats your occupation" you will get a good idea of what is going on. When I posted there, I was the 76th post. Out of the first 75 posts exactly ZERO (0) people were professional photographers. Almost everyone had a full time, life supporting, family supporting, good paying JOB. They all wannabee like me! A self-supporting Professional Photographer. I know it is because everyone thinks it is such a great way to support and raise your family. It used to be until all the wannabees jumped out and started giving away product.

Remember, Knowledge is power! I and other Professional Photographers have just provided you with the power to dig in and investigate whether or not you can make a living as a Professional Photographer by charging cheap prices. I trust you are capable of taking the ball and running with it now that you have all the insight you need regarding this subject.

Oh, BTW, BMW had quite a scare from Audi in the 70's to the 90's with all of the cheap cars on the road in Germany. BMW is now making a come back but now cars cost a minimum of $20,000. In the 70's to 90's cars were cheap. Why has the price of cars gone up and the price of photography gone down in the past 30 years? Cheap better cameras allowing more people to get into photography with no experience or knowledge! Most people out there don't know what an f-stop is much less what it does.

[jfrancho]

Most people out there don't know what an f-stop is much less what it does.

That is the point when your brain keeps you from using the f-word in an inappropriate situation.

[jfrancho]

Oh, BTW, BMW had quite a scare from Audi in the 70's to the 90's with all of the cheap cars on the road in Germany. BMW is now making a come back but now cars cost a minimum of $20,000. In the 70's to 90's cars were cheap. Why has the price of cars gone up and the price of photography gone down in the past 30 years? Cheap better cameras allowing more people to get into photography with no experience or knowledge! Most people out there don't know what an f-stop is much less what it does.

I must be dense or something, but I fail to see the correlation between the German auto market and the indy pro photog market. Don't bother explaining it to me either, you already look foolish as it is. Sorry, but that's the truth. This whole thread sounds like someone decided to actually look at their bottom line, and it wasn't good. Then glancing at all the open holes in their booking calender, came to a conclusion based on assumptions, and instead of performing a self examination of their business, decided to go to an internet forum, and play the blame game.

[brian.austin]

Originally Posted by jfrancho

I must be dense or something, but I fail to see the correlation between the German auto market and the indy pro photog market. Don't bother explaining it to me either, you already look foolish as it is. Sorry, but that's the truth. This whole thread sounds like someone decided to actually look at their bottom line, and it wasn't good. Then glancing at all the open holes in their booking calender, came to a conclusion based on assumptions, and instead of performing a self examination of their business, decided to go to an internet forum, and play the blame game.

Yup. More elitist dogma.