Selling Portraits or Scared by all the cheap prices

[brian.austin]

Originally Posted by kgphoto

Here again, you are missing the very point I made, that as a GENERALIZATION, MOST photographers are probably charging too little. I think we could also make that generalization about painters, pizza shops and house cleaning services.

Okay, you did say generalization. Good point.

Ironically, I've been a paint contractor, pizza shop manager, and cleaner. I made good $$ with painting and pizza shop. House/office cleaning is seriously low margin stuff, though. At the pizza shop, a $10,000 gross week (chain, which helped) with 50% food/labor mix would generate a net income of $1-2,000/week (AFTER my salary and all the bills were paid). Don't discount those pizza stores. Heck a few McDonalds stores can make an owner a millionaire and the average sale is probably in the $10 range (I don't know what it is and can't find a fast source).

Yes, lower costs and more efficient systems allow tighter competition on price point, but that is not what was being discussed! This is the point YOU are missing.

I just read through the first page of this thread. I don't see that I'm missing the point. The discussion centered around costs and profit and price points.

Now as to the generalization, if you go to seminars and PPof A (and others) presentations you will hear many photogs comment that they don't know they can sell their product at a higher price, or that they chose wrong methods for establishing their prices, like YOU already wrote about. Why you ignore your own posts to make contrary posts is hard to understand.

Again, you lost me on the contrary posts.

So this is the point, if typically like products are priced with huge differences, that affects the perceived value in the eyes of the customers looking at BOTH products.

I fully agree. At the same time, I set my own standard, as you note below, for my customers.

It is a free country, you ( the imperial you, not you personally) CAN charge anything your want. That doesn't mean the choice you make is the best one and since it is still a free country you are free to be educated abut how to improve your business model.

While I agree that price differences of a few dollars don't carry a lot of weight for most people and won't affect the perception of the tier, large swings will. Offering for sale a 4x6 for .24, which is less than my lab charges for the same thing while offering it in comparison to my product,(both are images for sale on a internet site) definitely changes the publics perception about worth. That is the point that is being discussed here. Two very similar commodities for sale at divergent prices.

That's the way this thread started. Then it became a whinefest about how part-time photographers are killing the market. Specifically college students and "insane cheap prices killing the market". Selling Portraits or Scared by all the cheap prices

Then it become a comparison between the "digital wannabee" and the "Professional Photographer", comparing business practices and pricing from 15-20 years ago with today.

I will say one more thing about "their costs." If (Please note the "if") you are going to earn a living as a photographer, even if you don't have high overhead now because you are starting out. You do all the work yourself, promotion, sales, photography, production, delivery, etc. someday you will want to (or need to) have someone else do it.

The likelihood (another generalization) is that they will want to be PAID for doing this work for you. If you have not been keeping track of your time and paying yourself for all that time and included it in your pricing, then your pricing will not be high enough to support these new hires.

Perhaps the increased volume they allow will allow you to cover it, but unlikely. The rule of thumb is that a new cost (employee, equipment, Facility, etc.) needs to increase your gross income 3-5 times their cost to be able to be supported.

"New cost needs to increase gross income 3-5 times their cost." I'm not questioning this but trying to put it into math here since the statement isn't clear....okay, I didn't put the math in here but went through the calcs. It works, at least on a small scale. Things change at larger scales but for the current audience, it's unlikely it applies here.

As to your comparison of airlines competing on price, note that many went bankrupt and or shut down.

Which further emphasizes my point: it's not my problem as long as I meet my goals and control my costs to my satisfaction.

Good stuff. And you DO shoot better than me...which you already knew.

[ladyphotog]

I think the problem here is ego and not what has or hasn't been said. I'm done, the ones that wanted information about pricing and the photography business have PMed me and I will answer their questions that way.

Have a great day!

[00silvergt]

Originally Posted by ladyphotog

Actually no, I wouldn't be happy with that but that is neither here nor there.



I really don't get the attitude guys. I was only trying to explain that you should charge more for your work. It makes no difference to me other than the industry suffers. I have plenty of competition and plenty of business, thank you. Is that the problem? Because we are working photographers? Gee guys, I would be happy to help you to increase your business if you would drop the attitude.

What attitude? I was being very nice, I thought. Hmmmph...LOL.

[ohenry]

This thread has really gotten silly, but I'm addicted to reading it. I HAVE to look to see who's saying what next. It's like a bad soap opera that you can't stop watching.

It started out as a whine about how low prices were ruining one's ability to make a living and has evolved into an argument of business plans and profit margins to who is angry and who is arrogant and now it is bordering on name-calling and bruised feelings. Man, this is fun stuff LOL....sorry for the interruption ...

[Inked Photography]

Originally Posted by ohenry

This thread has really gotten silly, but I'm addicted to reading it. I HAVE to look to see who's saying what next. It's like a bad soap opera that you can't stop watching.

It started out as a whine about how low prices were ruining one's ability to make a living and has evolved into an argument of business plans and profit margins to who is angry and who is arrogant and now it is bordering on name-calling and bruised feelings. Man, this is fun stuff LOL....sorry for the interruption ...

lol!!! Henry I feel the same way. Like a bad damn car wreck.....

[brian.austin]

Originally Posted by ohenry

This thread has really gotten silly, but I'm addicted to reading it. I HAVE to look to see who's saying what next. It's like a bad soap opera that you can't stop watching.

It started out as a whine about how low prices were ruining one's ability to make a living and has evolved into an argument of business plans and profit margins to who is angry and who is arrogant and now it is bordering on name-calling and bruised feelings. Man, this is fun stuff LOL....sorry for the interruption ...

I find it ironic that the name calling and bruised feelings come from someone with no history here, no real name, no online portfolio, no available resume, and somehow expects to be taken as a serious, credible source...

[mcbit]

Dang look at the bottom of the page and see how many people are in looking.

Right on!

[Rodeoshooter]

Originally Posted by Inked Photography

Besides this all started with 4x6 prints at $.24? Who the heck buys 4x6 anymore anyway!!! Maybe it was just a ploy to get them to look and then hook em with the 5x7's or 8x10's......

Maybe, but you saw the prices I posted from the last person, who is a Camel member, but shall remain nameless. The 8x10's in their case are only $10.00. The first person I quoted was $0.24 for 4x6, $0.50 for a 5x7 and $1.00 for an 8x10. Economics don't allow me or most people to make a reasonable profit on the sale of photos at this price. Not if I want to raise my family and actually put food on the table. I called Wally World and they are $0.19 for a 4x6. If I sold this one customer 100 prints with a profit of $0.05 per image I would have a profit of $5.00. If you use the example below and I drove the 18 miles round trip to Wally World and back, I would use $4.00 in gas for a $5.00 order. Why would anyone do that?

I am not claiming I know everyone's expenses but most expenses are in the ball park where ever you go in the U.S.. For example the national average for unleaded gas (the cheap stuff) is $4.08 or so a gallon. So if you are driving a car with EPA estimated mileage of 20 miles per gallon, it doesn't matter where you live, it would be reasonable to say if you drive 60 miles you are going to spend about $12 on gas. This is a pretty fixed cost. Doesn't matter where you are! Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that one.

[ladyphotog]

Originally Posted by brian.austin

I find it ironic that the name calling and bruised feelings come from someone with no history here, no real name, no online portfolio, no available resume, and somehow expects to be taken as a serious, credible source...

And I have no intention of showing anything to you. I'm not the one with bruised feelings. Sounds like someone is a wannabe and isn't quite able to do it. Pity!

[cman78]

Brian, Rodeoshooter and kgphoto I have to say I would go have a cup of coffee with you guys anytime. You guys are great debaters and have great passion it shows in your words. I have to say standing on the side lines of this debate I agree with both arguments in some areas and disagree in others and find myself somewhere in the middle. You all have spawned some deep thoughts in my brain so K for all of you.

[Rodeoshooter]

Thank you Cman. I would enjoy sitting down with all of you at any time for drinks.

Originally Posted by cman78

Brian, Rodeoshooter, JimmyZ and kgphoto I have to say I would go have a cup of coffee with you guys anytime. You guys are great debaters and have great passion it shows in your words. I have to say standing on the side lines of this debate I agree with both arguments in some areas and disagree in others and find myself somewhere in the middle. You all have spawned some deep thoughts in my brain so K for all of you.

[brian.austin]

Originally Posted by Rodeoshooter

Maybe, but you saw the prices I posted from the last person, who is a Camel member, but shall remain nameless. The 8x10's in their case are only $10.00. The first person I quoted was $0.24 for 4x6, $0.50 for a 5x7 and $1.00 for an 8x10. Economics don't allow me or most people to make a reasonable profit on the sale of photos at this price. Not if I want to raise my family and actually put food on the table. I called Wally World and they are $0.19 for a 4x6. If I sold this one customer 100 prints with a profit of $0.05 per image I would have a profit of $5.00. If you use the example below and I drove the 18 miles round trip to Wally World and back, I would use $4.00 in gas for a $5.00 order. Why would anyone do that?

I am not claiming I know everyone's expenses but most expenses are in the ball park where ever you go in the U.S.. For example the national average for unleaded gas (the cheap stuff) is $4.08 or so a gallon. So if you are driving a car with EPA estimated mileage of 20 miles per gallon, it doesn't matter where you live, it would be reasonable to say if you drive 60 miles you are going to spend about $12 on gas. This is a pretty fixed cost. Doesn't matter where you are! Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that one.

Do you realize how many assumptions you just made in this post? Seriously, this is not an "angry" post. I'm really confused on how you can still take a $0.24 argument mixed with your gas estimates and lack of knowledge on the situation to justify a position that someone isn't making any money.

What happens if your "rocket scientist" has his studio next door to Walmart? Kinda kills your gas argument, don't you think?

This entire thread questions almost all of the assumptions you've made and yet you haven't answered any of them directly. For the most part, KG did a great job for you. If you had left it at that, this would have ended with the usual silliness that these threads do.