Selling Portraits or Scared by all the cheap prices

[oldugly]

Some great discussion here. (Sorry I'm late, cable modem took a big one two days ago.) First, I am NOT a pro. Don't intend to be, so the discussion is more intellectual than passionate. I have been around photography for more than a couple of years. Ditto for business. (MBA [Mediocre But Arrogant] and a confidential small business consultant.)

Each of you have presented some good points. (Have been waiting for Mark to jump in.) My suggestion--if you are serious, go back over each post and pull out the main points of each. Think about how each applies to you and your situation. You might be surprised.

I won't go into how to develop a business plan, there are some very good sources out there that will help you with that. Know your needs and situation. Know the market in your area. Do the two match? I think you will find that is what those with successful businesses have done.

Most importantly, keep discussing and learning from each other.

[KellyL]

Thanky you Ed for your reply. I have been thinking a great deal about the business plan over the past year. I shot my first wedding for free because they weren't even going to have a wedding, and the sister of the bride who planned their wedding came to me and asked me if I was interested. This was my introduction to the grand dream that had been hibernating in my mind for many, many years. The next wedding, I charged $400.00 and after the shoot and working very hard on the imges I walked away and said I would NEVER do that again. I sold my life for peanuts, but the experience was invaluable. The couple who hired me was not going to have a professional photographer, and somebody gave them my name, and I was eager to try it again. Since that time I have worked diligently to educate myself, have been to training seminars, have repeatedly asked for critiques and help and have not hesitated in the least to throw up some of my worst work online...I have never wanted pats on the head, but have desperately wanted knowledge.

I am now able to charge what you have quoted above...and my name is spreading. But what I am lacking right now is a true business plan.

Ladyphotog, feel free to pass any information my way. My email is in my profile. I love the whole wedding day, I try to take photos that reflect passion, and I only want to get better and better. A highly awarded photographer has taken note of this passion and has invited me to apprentice with him on a couple of weddings and attend more training. You better believe I jumped at the chance. He also told me that he started out the same way I did, and eventually was consumed by the business and has an extremely successful business going. I leave for my "apprenticeship" tomorrow morning.

Thanks again for the good advice, everybody.

[Rodeoshooter]

Brian,

I didn't say everyone should charge the same price. That would be against the law. All I am saying is charge based on your expenses and learn what the meaning of "profit" is.

Here is another wannabee who has a website with a studio name listed which would mean he is trying to be a "professional" in the context of selling photos.
Print Prices

4X6 - $3.00
Wallets(Set of 4) - $5.00
5X7 - $5.00
8X10 - $10.00
11X14 - $20.00
16X20 - $30.00
16X24 - $35.00
20X30 - $50.00

"Lustre finish is extra"

This is part of the point Jimmyz, Ladyphotog, Ed, I and others (sorry your names are not at the top of my pea brain) have been trying say. You cannot charge prices like this anywhere and make a profit much less a living as a "Professional Photographer" for you and your family. I want to see you or anyone buy a replacement camera or do car repairs on the "profit" this photographer will make on his sales. IT CAN'T BE DONE! I don't care who you are, unless you have a "Full Time Job" in some other profession, you would not have the money. Especially from the sales of the photos.

How comments like this are taken as "Arrogance of professional photographers" is beyond me. Charge what ever the hell you want to but try to educate yourself on what constitutes a profit and what is a JOKE. Go learn how to do business is all we are saying. It's funny, Washington State says you have to have a business license and a Cosmetology license to cut hair but you can just go out and buy a camera and ruin someone's wedding. I have argued for years that photographers should be required to pass a license test of competence before being able to sell any photos. Call it a consumer protection act. As the former president of the Spokane Professional Photographers Association for 7 years, I was called upon many times by the public to render assistance regarding unlicensed, uneducated, immoral photographers both professional and amateur. I would look at the situation and render a verdict regarding the contract and services rendered. Most of the time with amateur photographers they would take it in the shorts because of their lack of standards and professionalism.

Originally Posted by ladyphotog

This is what we have been saying the whole time. But where did anyone say that everyone had to charge the same thing? We are saying to charge as a professional. Period. You can talk about markets all you want, I know my market and I would say most every successful photographer knows their market, you may not like that but it is true. Otherwise, they wouldn't be in business. Also, I don't consider "individual photographers with limited customer lists, single digit growth and relatively flat income changes year to year" successful.

Originally Posted by brian.austin

All I've heard is the arrogance of professional photographers complaining about what semi-pros and amateurs have done to their pricing strategies.

No one said charge the same thing. But at the same time, there is no way a McClintock High School student in Tempe, AZ, is going to be able to afford Al's prices from Spokane, WA. So Al's definition of "professional" prices isn't the same as someone's here. Yet you and he seem to be pushing just that.



You know YOUR market...just as I said earlier. Applying that same philosophy (charge more) to other markets is ridiculous without understanding THAT select, localized market. And plenty of businesses out there stay in business with little in the way of success.



Some may. If I have 10 customers, each paying me $50,000/year for photographic services, with my costs in the $200,000 range, would that be successful to you? Taking home $300,000 in profit/income? Of course, imo, that's a bad business strategy because the loss of one customer is a 10% drop in business. Different topic.

I'm about done with this. The arrogance is showing and it's obvious there is too much of an inability for some "professionals" to adapt to changing market conditions. That's your problem, not mine. The IT industry dealt with it years ago and goes through minor corrections regularly. I'm very used to this and the need to re-invent myself every few years.

Welcome to the party.

Originally Posted by ladyphotog

Arrogance? By explaining that you should be charging more for your work? Are you kidding me?



I totally agree, everyone should know their market but do you honestly think 24 cents for a 4x6 is the market value in any part of the country?

You keep saying we are arrogant and you keep implying that the 'professionals' are not adapting to changing market conditions. Why the derogatory comments toward the pros as you call us? We are trying to help and explain something. What is the problem?

Alright, Brian you are correct. We are just bitching. We are arrogant pros who are lying to everyone and just want to control the market. You are right. We are lying about wanting to live and raise families on our income as pros. We are wrong for wanting to teach others how to charge so they might make an income and we might all raise our families on our income.

Brian you are right about not being able to do the same sales in Tempe at the high school as I do in Spokane where the medium income is slightly over $14,000 for a family of 4. You are right about different areas having different markets.

But Brian tell me why again that they cannot sell $100,000 RV's in Tempe. I guess according to you a dealership cannot sell a Mercedes 500SL in Tempe either. Right? I guess you cannot sell million dollar homes in Arizona at all then. No one can afford them! Right? This is what you are saying. You are telling all of us that NO ONE CAN SELL anything in AZ. Not like they can in Spokane or Billings, Montana, or Minneapolis. Right?

Horse Pucky!

If you are a good sales person you can sell anyone anything. I happen to have studied some of the better sales people. I understand sales and can sell well. My biggest problem is I have a heart when it comes to my clients. I will sell but I will also ask "What do you need" instead of "What do you want". Subtle difference except if you understand we all want but what do we need! I have talked people out of bigger sales. They come back to me because of it. I want repeat customers not one time customers.

Yesterday you had mentioned you were familiar with the Oregon coast and you thought you knew the photographer I was speaking about in Bend. Sorry buddy but Bend is not on the Oregon coast and my buddy Jake is not the biggest photographer in Bend. He just happens to have some of the highest sales averages. Jake is a great guy but he is a shark when it comes to sales. Everyone tells me you can't sell $150 5x7's in Spokane. Jake came up here and every year does some little fairy sets for little girls and sells the hell out of $150 5x7's. He sells 13 x 19 prints for over $600 and the families cry about the prices but they take the prints home happy.

Brian, my last question to you about the subject is simple. Why are you attacking those of us who are opposite you? If you don't like the way the thread is going just jump off the tracks. Don't post if you don't like the way we want to educate people.

Thank you,

[Rodeoshooter]

Originally Posted by KellyL

In my neighborhood, those folks who spend $15,000 on the entire wedding are considered "high end weddings".

Would those be the same people who are spending $250 on tennis shoes or $50,000 on cars with nice stereos? Kelly what we are all trying to say is when you think you can't do something, you can't. Be the little engine that could!

I didn't say everyone had to charge the same rate. I said you can't make a profit charging $0.24 for a 4x6. I told everyone how to figure out what their real costs were and thereby figure out what the profit margin was.

What I would really like to pass on to everyone is: "You don't have to reinvent the wheel". Listen to the people who have passed before you when they say you can't make it last by charging $0.24 for a 4x6. Make the clients love your work and have them pay for your family to live.

Simple!

A client who has become a great friend, laughed today when I told her about the posts. When I told her about people charging as low as $0.24 for 4x6's she said "the photographer is paying the client to take possession of the photographs". What a true statement.

[Rodeoshooter]

Originally Posted by Stephanie C.

I myself have been a part time photographer, moving up to full time on my own. Have worked for one of the big box studios (7 years at one before I decided to go on my own) and hate how they function (and made me function!). Just took the CPP exam thru PPA and waiting for the results. Phew, what a busy year so far!
My competition in town has been a gal who has the town's main family name and is fortunate enough to have been voted on the school board (giving her the inside track on all the jobs). After viewing her work, my slogan has become "Anyone can pick up a camera, but not everyone holding a camera is a photographer" (I have this as my mySpace headline actually!). What does this have to do with anything? Your customers sometimes need to know what your education is, what you have done, & what you are aspiring to become to appreciate the value of you and your work.
Sure, we can complain about the big box studios and the free session fee and 7.99 packages. Do you know that it might sound good to the customer but they end up walking out of there paying much much more. No, I'm not giving away any trade secrets here, its in the fine print of their wonderful coupons. read it....free session fee for the first person or 9.99 off a membership (9.99 per person fee for each person after). The 3.99/sheet or 7.99 one pose package is for their SOOC images. Like the pretty ones? Let's bump you to a package of "enhanced" sheets starting at 79.99. These companies survive on sheer volume. Appointments booked every 10-20 minutes with a well trained sales staff. Photographers that have a set list of poses to do in the alloted time. Customers don't know this. They see the fabulous cheap price and the pretty image on the coupon adn that's what they are expecting. Their biggest complaint is feeling rushed.
Your customers need to know the value of the service you are providing for them. When you figure in the cost of what you customer might spend for gas driving to a mall studio, their time waiting (not just to get into their appointment but then the extra time it takes to see the images and go thru the spiel of what they can get, etc), then driving back to pick up said order....I think being local to my customers, having retouched images (no zits, teeth whitened , whatever), an hour long session with clothes changes, etc, etc, etc, makes whatever I charge that much more reasonable. I get excited about the images I make. I get even more excited after I go to a workshop or class and let my customer know a pose I might have just done was one I saw & couldn't wait to try with them. When they are excited too, love what they see....that's where they see the value in what you do. When they can't walk out of your shop without that picture.
Wow, did I go off, huh? I needed to get that out of my system I suppose.
To the original topic, no, I don't think you can claim to be a professional if you are charging 24 cents for a 4x6. I think that if you advertise yourself as a professional with your name or whatever, you should have some education to back it up. If you are charging like a professional, the price should justify the quality of your image. Your price should reflect the value of YOU for the area you live in. If the people value you and your product, they will come to you. (I drive 29 miles for cereal because one store has it...its that good, is 4.29 for a one pound bag and it costs me that much in gas to get there...but it is SO worth it!...I have to want it, but when I want it, I will go get it)
Ok, enough from me now. Thanks for reading.
Steph

Steph,

Welcome to the Camel! Glad to have you on board. Hang on this ride has gotten rough.

You have written a lot of truths in your message. I had a young lady who was the manager of an Olan Mills come to work for me. She didn't know what a light meter was, she didn't know lights could be moved, she didn't know cameras had adjustments that could be made to the shutter speed and f-stops.

She knew how to rape a customer of all their money in 3 seconds flat. She could sell the wings off of a fly with the fly not knowing she sold them. She told me all about how they had 5 minutes to do 3 poses in a session. If they took longer they were punished. If the customers only wanted the "free" 8x10 they were told to badger the customer until the customer bought more.

Not the kind of place I run.

[Rodeoshooter]

Originally Posted by brian.austin

~SNIP~

Al told me I was stealing pro's work in a karma comment.

~SNIP~

Brian,

I don't remember ever telling you I felt you were stealing pro's work in a karma comment. I would have to see the context and comments of what I said but I don't remember saying such a thing. I would say I am sorry but Brian I don't remember at all ever making that comment to you! Especially as a negative if I did say it.

[brian.austin]

Originally Posted by Rodeoshooter

I didn't say everyone should charge the same price. That would be against the law. All I am saying is charge based on your expenses and learn what the meaning of "profit" is.

Splendid. If you don't know my costs, how can you know my profits? For all you know, my daddy owns the print lab and I print them at night, for free.

Here is another wannabee who has a website with a studio name listed which would mean he is trying to be a "professional" in the context of selling photos.
Print Prices

4X6 - $3.00
Wallets(Set of 4) - $5.00
5X7 - $5.00
8X10 - $10.00
11X14 - $20.00
16X20 - $30.00
16X24 - $35.00
20X30 - $50.00

"Lustre finish is extra"

This is part of the point Jimmyz, Ladyphotog, Ed, I and others (sorry your names are not at the top of my pea brain) have been trying say. You cannot charge prices like this anywhere and make a profit much less a living as a "Professional Photographer" for you and your family. I want to see you or anyone buy a replacement camera or do car repairs on the "profit" this photographer will make on his sales. IT CAN'T BE DONE! I don't care who you are, unless you have a "Full Time Job" in some other profession, you would not have the money. Especially from the sales of the photos.

Classic. You have failed in one very key aspect of your analysis: you don't know this person's financial situation.

If I already made millions in IT from the dot-com boom and wanted to run a photo studio as a hobby, why would I possibly care if you cannot afford to buy a replacement camera on a $3.00 print sale? NOT MY PROBLEM.

How comments like this are taken as "Arrogance of professional photographers" is beyond me. Charge what ever the hell you want to but try to educate yourself on what constitutes a profit and what is a JOKE. Go learn how to do business is all we are saying.

LOL...Again, the arrogance pops out. You've defined your own way of "business" as being the standard. It changed but you weren't paying attention. I've been "doing business" as long as you have in a variety of industries. None of them care about what you decide to set as a cost/profit margin formula. Why should I?

Is a 20-25% net margin a joke? In most industries, no. I'm comfortable with it. Yet my own costs are lower than your's...so my overall margins can remain higher. You understand business? Post your REAL cost structure, including insurance, equipment depreciation, and lab costs (don't forget shipping!). Break it down for us. Because all I've seen and heard is rhetoric from you and others on how I'm charging so little (when you've never seen my pricing structure) and how I don't know what I'm doing.

That's arrogance.

We are wrong for wanting to teach others how to charge so they might make an income and we might all raise our families on our income.

Again, you seem to apply YOUR circumstances to all of us. That's not the case so it doesn't apply.

Brian you are right about not being able to do the same sales in Tempe at the high school as I do in Spokane where the medium income is slightly over $14,000 for a family of 4. You are right about different areas having different markets.

Feel free to quote your source for your median income. HUD estimates median income in Spokane, WA, as $56,700 this year. HUD Estimated Median Family Incomes in Region X

But Brian tell me why again that they cannot sell $100,000 RV's in Tempe. I guess according to you a dealership cannot sell a Mercedes 500SL in Tempe either. Right? I guess you cannot sell million dollar homes in Arizona at all then. No one can afford them! Right? This is what you are saying. You are telling all of us that NO ONE CAN SELL anything in AZ. Not like they can in Spokane or Billings, Montana, or Minneapolis. Right?

Different markets. You failed to remember HOW the senior market worked here in the Phoenix valley. Read back on it. I posted it earlier.

Horse Pucky!

Try getting your facts straight before you spout off again. You'll look like less of a fool.

Yesterday you had mentioned you were familiar with the Oregon coast and you thought you knew the photographer I was speaking about in Bend. Sorry buddy but Bend is not on the Oregon coast and my buddy Jake is not the biggest photographer in Bend. He just happens to have some of the highest sales averages. Jake is a great guy but he is a shark when it comes to sales. Everyone tells me you can't sell $150 5x7's in Spokane. Jake came up here and every year does some little fairy sets for little girls and sells the hell out of $150 5x7's. He sells 13 x 19 prints for over $600 and the families cry about the prices but they take the prints home happy.

Once again, you failed to read properly. I never said "Bend, OR". I said "coast of Oregon". Nor was I referring to your friend. You were. I was referring to a studio in Coos Bay, which I referenced in a later post.

Brian, my last question to you about the subject is simple. Why are you attacking those of us who are opposite you? If you don't like the way the thread is going just jump off the tracks. Don't post if you don't like the way we want to educate people.

This is education? It sounds more like whining and complaining, then really bad attempts at brainwashing.

You fail to take into account local market conditions.
You fail to take into account individual income levels.
You focus on the efforts of photographers selling prints as if they are YOU selling prints...when they aren't.
You focus on how your area's senior sales are down 75%, ignoring local economic conditions, increased unemployment, higher gas prices, higher grocery prices, increased inflation, and overall monetary hardships with people losing their homes, worried about their jobs, and wondering if they'll have money in the next few months.

Instead you blame your hardships on some guy across the country selling $0.24 prints.

And you call yourself a businessman? You've been doing this for 25 years and yet haven't grasped the concept of different cost scales, different local market conditions, and different income requirements? A man in Phoenix can live fairly well on $50,000/yr. That same man wouldn't be able to afford a place to live in San Francisco, CA.

You've been a photographer for 25 years. Congratulations. In 25 years, I've worked in 6 different industries in a variety of different jobs. I've done everything from shovel metal into foundry furnaces to designing and managing multi-million dollar IT projects for schools. You know photography and your local, selective market. You don't know business like I know business. That's fairly apparent.

[brian.austin]

Originally Posted by Rodeoshooter

Brian,

I don't remember ever telling you I felt you were stealing pro's work in a karma comment. I would have to see the context and comments of what I said but I don't remember saying such a thing. I would say I am sorry but Brian I don't remember at all ever making that comment to you! Especially as a negative if I did say it.

Uh...yeah:

[Rodeoshooter]

Originally Posted by brian.austin

Splendid. If you don't know my costs, how can you know my profits? For all you know, my daddy owns the print lab and I print them at night, for free.



Classic. You have failed in one very key aspect of your analysis: you don't know this person's financial situation.

If I already made millions in IT from the dot-com boom and wanted to run a photo studio as a hobby, why would I possibly care if you cannot afford to buy a replacement camera on a $3.00 print sale? NOT MY PROBLEM.



LOL...Again, the arrogance pops out. You've defined your own way of "business" as being the standard. It changed but you weren't paying attention. I've been "doing business" as long as you have in a variety of industries. None of them care about what you decide to set as a cost/profit margin formula. Why should I?

Is a 20-25% net margin a joke? In most industries, no. I'm comfortable with it. Yet my own costs are lower than your's...so my overall margins can remain higher. You understand business? Post your REAL cost structure, including insurance, equipment depreciation, and lab costs (don't forget shipping!). Break it down for us. Because all I've seen and heard is rhetoric from you and others on how I'm charging so little (when you've never seen my pricing structure) and how I don't know what I'm doing.

That's arrogance.



Again, you seem to apply YOUR circumstances to all of us. That's not the case so it doesn't apply.



Feel free to quote your source for your median income. HUD estimates median income in Spokane, WA, as $56,700 this year.