Selling Portraits or Scared by all the cheap prices

[Ed Shapiro]

Hi GANG! The horse ain't dead yet, I am still here and very much alive. Good thread- food for thought.

My earlier post is specific to my business model and my policies will not necessarily work for every photographer, in every geographic location and in every socioeconomic group. For most of my career I have run a low volume, high end (prices) studio offering high quality portraiture and industrial/commercial photography. This will be my 50th year in the business but that doesn't count for 1 year of experience repeated 50 times over. I have always accepted and responded to changes in the marketplace, my clients' requirements and changes in technology. I embrace more that I reject. Some say I am "old school" but that's fine- I know where I came from and therefore I know where I am going. Opera and classical music is old school too, but people are paying big bucks to attend the concerts.

I am offering advice to those who aspire to such a business model and of course, local buying habits, trends and marketing practices have to be taken into consideration- you have to adopt and adapt theses ideas to your own locale and your own vision. No specific policy or methodology is carved in stone, however, their are certain principles of doing business that are not dated or old school. If I did not want to write one of my protracted long and dreary posts full of unsolicited advice, I would distill it all into one paragraph.

You have to set goals, bring your work up to professional levels and decide on a specialty or specialties and work YOUR marketplace. One of my main philosophies is that I can't be everyone's photographer. I an too expensive for some and perhaps not expensive enough for others. Not everyone is going to like my styles and methods and some are going to think I am God's gift to photography (that would be cool!) . You are the final arbiter of who and how you are going to compete with and what markets you are going to pursue. If you don't want to compete with low priced operators or department stores, you have to market diametrically opposite to what theses individuals and corporations are doing, offering and promoting. There is definitely a market for high end, classical professional photography just as there is a market for exotic and classic cars, luxury homes and high fashion clothing. This is not the mass market so it takes a lot of targeted marketing and hard work.

There is nothing wrong with other markets and approaches and there is money to be made in all of them. If you do not aspire to a professional career, there is nothing wrong with doing photography as an art, hobby, equipment collector, family record purposes , and to make gifts to friends and family and contribute to their church.. I never considered theses folks to be my competition. I don't even waste time criticizing amateurs who represent themselves as professionals and then screw things up. Theses things happen in every job, trade and profession where there is no licensing or control- it's a free country with a free enterprise system and folks can do as the please within the law. All I can do is do my best work, put my best foot forward and try to bring people who aspire to professionalism in to the fold.

Sincerely, Ed

[ladyphotog]

I don't think some of you understand what Rodeoshooter, Ed and I are trying to say. (correct me if I'm wrong guys) We don't want any of you to devalue the industry. There are already too many people that think they can take good pictures because they have the latest camera. But by not charging enough for your work, you are showing them that it is not valued. Photography is still not considered by some to be an art form. Just because anyone can pick up a camera doesn't mean that you have to compete with that. I can pick up an easel and paints but I am by no means a painter. Therefore, be the artist that you are, no matter if you are shooting weddings, portraits, dogs and cats, whatever it is and charge like an artist.

In 20+ years I have always charged what most people would consider a high rate. I shoot mainly commercial, so I charge a day rate. And there is plenty of competition as I am in Atlanta. But I have never not had the jobs. Attitude has a lot to do with it. If you feel that your work deserves a high price, then people will pay it. We all need to be the best at what we do and it should show in every way, including price.

[brian.austin]

Originally Posted by ladyphotog

We don't want any of you to devalue the industry.

Wow. I guess that about sums up the attitude.

Value is not determined by the sellers. It's assigned by the BUYERS.

Your analogy of the painting continued: if your painting comes up for auction and has an estimated value of $100 but sells for $10,000...who determined the value? You as the artist, the broker, or the buyer? And the flip side also works: if it's estimated at $10,000 and sells for $1,000...who determined the value?

It simply amazes me when successful photographers assign themselves as business experts with no concept of how markets really work. You don't GET a choice on controlling it. You adapt, ignore or quit. Period.

[ladyphotog]

Originally Posted by brian.austin

Wow. I guess that about sums up the attitude.

Value is not determined by the sellers. It's assigned by the BUYERS.

Your analogy of the painting continued: if your painting comes up for auction and has an estimated value of $100 but sells for $10,000...who determined the value? You as the artist, the broker, or the buyer? And the flip side also works: if it's estimated at $10,000 and sells for $1,000...who determined the value?

It simply amazes me when successful photographers assign themselves as business experts with no concept of how markets really work. You don't GET a choice on controlling it. You adapt, ignore or quit. Period.

Yes, you are right, the buyer determines the value, however, if they are shown what they are getting for that value they will gladly pay it. Pure and simple.

You say it amazes you when successful photographers assign themselves as business experts with no concept of how markets really work. Just one problem with that, how are they successful with no concept of the market? Believe me, any successful photographer knows the market or they wouldn't be in business any longer. The photography business is much more about being a business person and less about being a photographer.

[Stephanie C.]

Originally Posted by ladyphotog

Just because anyone can pick up a camera doesn't mean that you have to compete with that. - SNIP! - We all need to be the best at what we do and it should show in every way, including price.

I myself have been a part time photographer, moving up to full time on my own. Have worked for one of the big box studios (7 years at one before I decided to go on my own) and hate how they function (and made me function!). Just took the CPP exam thru PPA and waiting for the results. Phew, what a busy year so far!
My competition in town has been a gal who has the town's main family name and is fortunate enough to have been voted on the school board (giving her the inside track on all the jobs). After viewing her work, my slogan has become "Anyone can pick up a camera, but not everyone holding a camera is a photographer" (I have this as my mySpace headline actually!). What does this have to do with anything? Your customers sometimes need to know what your education is, what you have done, & what you are aspiring to become to appreciate the value of you and your work.
Sure, we can complain about the big box studios and the free session fee and 7.99 packages. Do you know that it might sound good to the customer but they end up walking out of there paying much much more. No, I'm not giving away any trade secrets here, its in the fine print of their wonderful coupons. read it....free session fee for the first person or 9.99 off a membership (9.99 per person fee for each person after). The 3.99/sheet or 7.99 one pose package is for their SOOC images. Like the pretty ones? Let's bump you to a package of "enhanced" sheets starting at 79.99. These companies survive on sheer volume. Appointments booked every 10-20 minutes with a well trained sales staff. Photographers that have a set list of poses to do in the alloted time. Customers don't know this. They see the fabulous cheap price and the pretty image on the coupon adn that's what they are expecting. Their biggest complaint is feeling rushed.
Your customers need to know the value of the service you are providing for them. When you figure in the cost of what you customer might spend for gas driving to a mall studio, their time waiting (not just to get into their appointment but then the extra time it takes to see the images and go thru the spiel of what they can get, etc), then driving back to pick up said order....I think being local to my customers, having retouched images (no zits, teeth whitened , whatever), an hour long session with clothes changes, etc, etc, etc, makes whatever I charge that much more reasonable. I get excited about the images I make. I get even more excited after I go to a workshop or class and let my customer know a pose I might have just done was one I saw & couldn't wait to try with them. When they are excited too, love what they see....that's where they see the value in what you do. When they can't walk out of your shop without that picture.
Wow, did I go off, huh? I needed to get that out of my system I suppose.
To the original topic, no, I don't think you can claim to be a professional if you are charging 24 cents for a 4x6. I think that if you advertise yourself as a professional with your name or whatever, you should have some education to back it up. If you are charging like a professional, the price should justify the quality of your image. Your price should reflect the value of YOU for the area you live in. If the people value you and your product, they will come to you. (I drive 29 miles for cereal because one store has it...its that good, is 4.29 for a one pound bag and it costs me that much in gas to get there...but it is SO worth it!...I have to want it, but when I want it, I will go get it)
Ok, enough from me now. Thanks for reading.
Steph

[brian.austin]

Originally Posted by ladyphotog

Yes, you are right, the buyer determines the value, however, if they are shown what they are getting for that value they will gladly pay it. Pure and simple.

"Pure and simple". No, not really. Because you're assuming you know the defintion of value while the customer doesn't. You're also assuming that anyone walking through your door with a $500 budget can get talked into a $2,000 package. No, not all the time, because some people simply don't assign a $2,000 value to something they have $500 for. So they go shopping for a $500 product. Those were never your customers to begin with.

You say it amazes you when successful photographers assign themselves as business experts with no concept of how markets really work. Just one problem with that, how are they successful with no concept of the market? Believe me, any successful photographer knows the market or they wouldn't be in business any longer. The photography business is much more about being a business person and less about being a photographer.

You found a select group of customers willing to pay your prices for your product or service. Lifetouch knows the market. Olan Mills knows the market. Individual photographers with limited customer lists, single digit growth and relatively flat income changes year to year do not know "the market". They know their select, localized CORNER of the market.

Will those same techniques work for other photographers in other areas? Sure...assuming the demographics are similar, the value assigned by the BUYERS to photographs are similar, and the discretionary income is available. In other words, a simlar select, localized market. Change the demographics, though, and what happens? No buyers. Try selling Scottsdale level prices in downtown Detroit. You'd fail.

If I took Phoenix techniques and prices and went to Coos Bay, OR, with that attitude, I'd fail. Why? Different market. Different perception of value. Different demographics. I need to learn the local market, figure out what is important to it, and build a product for it. Then assign a price to it that fits both the market and what I need to make a profit.

There is no cookie cutter approach here.

[ladyphotog]

Originally Posted by brian.austin

You found a select group of customers willing to pay your prices for your product or service. Lifetouch knows the market. Olan Mills knows the market. Individual photographers with limited customer lists, single digit growth and relatively flat income changes year to year do not know "the market". They know their select, localized CORNER of the market.

Will those same techniques work for other photographers in other areas? Sure...assuming the demographics are similar, the value assigned by the BUYERS to photographs are similar, and the discretionary income is available. In other words, a simlar select, localized market. Change the demographics, though, and what happens? No buyers. Try selling Scottsdale level prices in downtown Detroit. You'd fail.

If I took Phoenix techniques and prices and went to Coos Bay, OR, with that attitude, I'd fail. Why? Different market. Different perception of value. Different demographics. I need to learn the local market, figure out what is important to it, and build a product for it. Then assign a price to it that fits both the market and what I need to make a profit.

There is no cookie cutter approach here.

This is what we have been saying the whole time. But where did anyone say that everyone had to charge the same thing? We are saying to charge as a professional. Period. You can talk about markets all you want, I know my market and I would say most every successful photographer knows their market, you may not like that but it is true. Otherwise, they wouldn't be in business. Also, I don't consider "individual photographers with limited customer lists, single digit growth and relatively flat income changes year to year" successful.

[brian.austin]

Originally Posted by ladyphotog

This is what we have been saying the whole time. But where did anyone say that everyone had to charge the same thing? We are saying to charge as a professional. Period.

All I've heard is the arrogance of professional photographers complaining about what semi-pros and amateurs have done to their pricing strategies.

No one said charge the same thing. But at the same time, there is no way a McClintock High School student in Tempe, AZ, is going to be able to afford Al's prices from Spokane, WA. So Al's definition of "professional" prices isn't the same as someone's here. Yet you and he seem to be pushing just that.

You can talk about markets all you want, I know my market and I would say most every successful photographer knows their market, you may not like that but it is true. Otherwise, they wouldn't be in business.

You know YOUR market...just as I said earlier. Applying that same philosophy (charge more) to other markets is ridiculous without understanding THAT select, localized market. And plenty of businesses out there stay in business with little in the way of success.

Also, I don't consider "individual photographers with limited customer lists, single digit growth and relatively flat income changes year to year" successful.

Some may. If I have 10 customers, each paying me $50,000/year for photographic services, with my costs in the $200,000 range, would that be successful to you? Taking home $300,000 in profit/income? Of course, imo, that's a bad business strategy because the loss of one customer is a 10% drop in business. Different topic.

I'm about done with this. The arrogance is showing and it's obvious there is too much of an inability for some "professionals" to adapt to changing market conditions. That's your problem, not mine. The IT industry dealt with it years ago and goes through minor corrections regularly. I'm very used to this and the need to re-invent myself every few years.

Welcome to the party.

[ladyphotog]

Originally Posted by brian.austin

All I've heard is the arrogance of professional photographers complaining about what semi-pros and amateurs have done to their pricing strategies.

Arrogance? By explaining that you should be charging more for your work? Are you kidding me?

Originally Posted by brian.austin

No one said charge the same thing. But at the same time, there is no way a McClintock High School student in Tempe, AZ, is going to be able to afford Al's prices from Spokane, WA. So Al's definition of "professional" prices isn't the same as someone's here. Yet you and he seem to be pushing just that.

You know YOUR market...just as I said earlier. Applying that same philosophy (charge more) to other markets is ridiculous without understanding THAT select, localized market. And plenty of businesses out there stay in business with little in the way of success.

Some may. If I have 10 customers, each paying me $50,000/year for photographic services, with my costs in the $200,000 range, would that be successful to you? Taking home $300,000 in profit/income? Of course, imo, that's a bad business strategy because the loss of one customer is a 10% drop in business. Different topic.

I'm about done with this. The arrogance is showing and it's obvious there is too much of an inability for some "professionals" to adapt to changing market conditions. That's your problem, not mine. The IT industry dealt with it years ago and goes through minor corrections regularly. I'm very used to this and the need to re-invent myself every few years.

Welcome to the party.

I totally agree, everyone should know their market but do you honestly think 24 cents for a 4x6 is the market value in any part of the country?

You keep saying we are arrogant and you keep implying that the 'professionals' are not adapting to changing market conditions. Why the derogatory comments toward the pros as you call us? We are trying to help and explain something. What is the problem?

[brian.austin]

Originally Posted by ladyphotog

I totally agree, everyone should know their market but do you honestly think 24 cents for a 4x6 is the market value in any part of the country?

Sigh. You still don't get it. If the buyer is happy and the seller is happy...yes, that's the market value for that particular transaction. That's how it works. If you truly understood business and economics, this wouldn't be a surprise to you.

You keep saying we are arrogant and you keep implying that the 'professionals' are not adapting to changing market conditions. Why the derogatory comments toward the pros as you call us?

You called yourself a pro, not me. Al told me I was stealing pro's work in a karma comment. So obviously you're classifying yourself, not me. I'm just a photographer with a fairly extensive history in business.

We are trying to help and explain something. What is the problem?

No, you're trying to control something that's out of your hands. That's arrogance. You've explained it from a professional photographer's point of view and how it's "devaluing the industry" (your words, not mine). From a pure business perspective, though, it's a natural course as technologies change. The auto industry did it. The IT industry did it. The airlines did it. Many other industries did it. The people who can adapt make it. Those who can't (IBM, GM, TWA) fail. That's the way it works.

Again, three choices:

Adapt
Ignore
Quit

You don't get to control it. You don't get to dictate my prices. You don't get to tell the market how to price itself.

Want to help? Educate. A few have tried but, again, arrogance floats into the discussion. And I'm really, really curious how much pure business knowledge has gone into the pricing strategies. Do you know your true margins per job? Or do you just look at net income at the end of the quarter or year? Do you factor commissions, taxes, COLA, advertising, insurance, rent, utilities, COGS, overtime, equipment depreciation, and more into your actual pricing? How have you valued your time? What if it extends beyond your normal working hours? Did your costs just go up or do you ignore it? If a piece of equipment breaks on the job, does that piece get costed to the job or as indirect expenses?

Or did you just find out what others are charging and eventually adjust your prices until you started making money?

I do this for my work. I can predict, to the month and dime, how much profit a connection has made vs how much it cost to maintain it. And I know when it starts making a profit vs when it's still paying itself off. I anticipate future repairs into my costs. I trend past issues that cost money into future pricing. I re-evaluate this constantly.

I said I was done. If you get it up to this point, you'll get it over time. If you don't, it's unlikely you will. Again, not my problem.

[Songman45]

Thank you Ed. I was up till 3:45 this morning reading every post to this thread. I can understand many fine people's differing opinions. The amature at an event with a fairly nice camera who wants to take pictures for the love of the art or to hone his skill is okay. It is only when we happen up on the shooter with a laptop, printer and inverter in the back of his mini van soliciting business OR the weekend warrior with a hosting site and a box of business cards horning in on our event are we insensed. There are arguements that we do not "own" the event, or the guy 5 miles up the road with no overhead and no expense and therefore dirt cheap prices ought to doing the business, or that no one told us to go out and invest all this money in time and equipment and travel in a fuel hogging vehicle for a piece of a very cheap pie. I can understand that the hobbiest who's picking up a few bucks (not even a profit) because its so fun, has no compulsion to feel so much as empathy for the pro shooter trying to make a living for himself and a staff. I don't ask him to understand that he is making my life difficult, my life is not his responsibility. I just don't like it.

I'm glad to read so many opinions on price setting and marketing in this thread. Twice now I have enjoyed successful photogrpahic runs working for businesses I did not own. The primary stumbling block for me in not going itno my own business has been captial funding. I am confident that once I have aquired the equipment and build in the necessary cushion for survivial pending profitibility, I can own and run a successful operation. I am now in a situation in life where I can begin spending the funds for aquisition while still polishing my craft and working toward my intended market.

I'm glad I have the time to consider things. Its good to have the wealth of experience shared here. I clearly see that the choice is mine to make; high volume medium price or exclusive low volume with a boutique price. I think I'll take the mid ground. The area I choose to live and work in is not densely populated (and not served by a full time pro photogrpaher) so I don't see a high volume discount price operation working out. With the total population being low in number, so too is the number of affluent potential clients. We are undergoing growth in the middle income segment. All around, schools are being built and new new houses are being bought and lived in. Furtile ground for the guy who wants to put out some effort.

Thanks to all who have posted views here. It really helps while I'm formulating a business plan.

[ladyphotog]

Originally Posted by brian.austin

Want to help? Educate. A few have tried but, again, arrogance floats into the discussion. And I'm really, really curious how much pure business knowledge has gone into the pricing strategies. Do you know your true margins per job? Or do you just look at net income at the end of the quarter or year? Do you factor commissions, taxes, COLA, advertising, insurance, rent, utilities, COGS, overtime, equipment depreciation, and more into your actual pricing? How have you valued your time? What if it extends beyond your normal working hours? Did your costs just go up or do you ignore it? If a piece of equipment breaks on the job, does that piece get costed to the job or as indirect expenses?

Exactly what we are trying to do. I don't understand your attitude about this. If you are done, it's too bad for you that you weren't willing to listen to years of experience because you have a different opinion. Instead of gri