Selling Portraits or Scared by all the cheap prices

[ladyphotog]

Originally Posted by Rodeoshooter

I hope I have made my point here. If you are going to put the shingle out and tell people you are a professional then damn well charge professional rates. I know some people are saying this doesn't matter and the real problem is the Walmart and J.C. Penneys of the world. The people in that market aren't looking for "Professional Photography" such as weddings or outdoor family portraits. The people who are going to "on the side photographers" are looking for the weddings and family portraits. Those people would be in my market if the "on the side photographers" weren't out there selling, sometimes substandard products, always at substandard prices. This is killing the market place with artifically low prices.

I couldn't agree more. There are plenty of people that still believe that you get what you pay for. My customers expect the best and will pay for it. All of you should have your customers thinking that way.

[brian.austin]

Originally Posted by Rodeoshooter

Looking at your statement about getting paid by the print is funny. I get $1,500 for a transparency or slide. We now have people GIVING away digital files, which are the same as the transparency or slides, for NOTHING. Damned rights I get pissed off. It is ridiculous. Wake up. Just because it costs you $5 to do, doesn't mean you are making a profit at $5.01.

All right already. We get the point. Yelling the same thing 10 times in a row doesn't mean we missed it the first 9 times or that it's 10 times more likely to happen.

Just a note on the $1,500 transparency vs giving away digital files: do you really think someone willing to pay $1,500 for a slide is going to look at the work of a giveway as the same level of photography? I really think you're talking about two different levels of client here. The person looking for a free giveway isn't even in your $1,500/slide market, imo. In other words, that person was never going to be your customer to begin with.

[Mr. Pickles]

Originally Posted by brian.austin

Just a note on the $1,500 transparency vs giving away digital files: do you really think someone willing to pay $1,500 for a slide is going to look at the work of a giveway as the same level of photography? I really think you're talking about two different levels of client here. The person looking for a free giveway isn't even in your $1,500/slide market, imo. In other words, that person was never going to be your customer to begin with.

I agree.

[00silvergt]

Wow, you can almost separate the full time pro's from the part-timers, just by their comments. my worthless entry:

Since we are focused on pricing and not really nitpicking quality, let's look at this example:

The Picture People. Free sitting fees. Prints are $18 for 1 8 x 10 or 2 5 X 7 or 8 wallets. So total cost of getting little Johnny's picture is $18 + tax. (The Picture People - Products: Sizes & Prices)

How do you compete with that? If you do as Rodeoshooter says, (No offense, bud, you know, I got nutin' but love for you homie, not brokeback mountain love though ) you will have one customer per year, one that didn't know to go to the mall.

The argument would not shift to quality, after all the local one at my mall uses a 20D with a Pocket Wizard and a soft box in the ceiling. Some acne ridden teeager is doing the shooting. They snap a max of 3-4 shots and voila a picture comes out with flat lighting, bad composition. But is sharp and bright. Most people out there would not be able to tell the Picture People's prints from one from a "real" photographer. Even if they did, would they pay 4-5 times more for it? In other words, would they get the value? If they are independently wealthy, have a trust fund or own a few oil wells, I would think they would shop for quality even if it means spending $100 for the sitting and $80 per 8 X 10. After all, you are capturing their image. Then you have 99% of the people, people who struggle to provide food, clothing, gas in their vehicles, etc. for their families. If they saw your ad and found the out about the Picture People, guess where they are going?

It is not much unlike offering the big gorilla cameras, the 1Ds3. Wow, that's nice and settling for the 1000D...but that one only costs $499 (or whatever it will sell for), instead of the $8K for the gorilla. Car stereos, Alpine, Kenwood, Pioneer, always have a big gorilla product, which everyone will be awed, and then people "settle" for the chimpanzee. Cars, etc.

I think the biggest advantage of the "professional", "real" photographers, would be a captive audience. On site as in weddings,etc. where these Mc Donald's type photogs don't venture. You have a captive audience they have to buy at least the first print from you.The other thing a friend of my did with a 20D was going to the balls around town. Where many retired, etc. people go to have a good time to do some ballroom dancing, etc. and he shoots, prints their photos out from his printer and charges them $20 for a 4 X 6. However, post business, would be tough, and I understand why many photogs here have stated that they are not concentrating on that business. After all with Costco and Ritz and Walgreens, etc. offering prints for way less and with equal quality of reprints, many would scan or print the pics from CD at the Kiosk or send it through the net. Yes, that's a copyright violation, but how many of our potential customers would care, unless they get caught and you sue them (Which makes you look like a tool, suing customers, is generally not a good practice or something you want to be known for.). How many make copies of their netflix DVD's? That should tell you people are looking for a free or cheap lunch when they can get away with it.

[00silvergt]

I also see it this way, before the Dot Gones, I was contracted on the side doing computer consulting since I was 11 years old. When I reached 18-19, I started to raise my pricing from ~7-8 an hour to ~20-30 an hour. Before the Geek squads, etc. I was charging $350 an hour for any client that needed my assistance, at my pinnacle, right before the bust.

However, I still charge $350 an hour, but I only have a few selected clients, ones that I've earned their trust, etc. and understand exactly what they are paying for. Not some kid who thinks they know what to do and sit there and guess all day on their computers or worst; mess it up.

If someone needed my assistance, I quote them my price and then I tell them to look at what the Geek Squad can do for them. If the Geek Squad can not help them, then come call me.

So I guess this applies here as well. If you are confident and have a strong client base, ones that won't dare go to a cheap studio, e.g. the Picture People, then by all means charge what your heart allows and what your client is willing to pay. However, you have to resign to the fact that unless you tailor your pricing to the audience, you will not gain the volume.

As for my computer consulting, that's fine with me. It keeps things more normal and gives me time for my family. I do understand if this is your only source of income and how that would play out. I guess it really is up to the individual and how they would like their business to be. To grow and reach more of a broader client base, then you will have to compete with The Picture People. If you want to stay, pretty much the "Mercedes Benz" of photographers, then as long as you know that you will probably not be all that busy all the time, unless you are some famous, real great photographer, that has the right connections.

[Ed Shapiro]

What I am going to write is not gonna be liked by a lot of people around here but I’m gonna write it anyway. If it helps one or two folks who are aspiring to a career in professional photography I will be pleased.
I have made my living as a professional photographer for the past 50 years- we (my lovely wife and I) have fed, sheltered, raised and educated our children, provide ourselves and our kids with a decent lifestyle, drove safe and decent cars, helped and participated in our community and had a lot of fun along with a lot of long days and hard work. I feel very strongly that it behooves us to leave something behind for the new people coming in to this industry. I enjoy teaching and inspiring them and most importantly, telling them the truth about the business and the art of photography. So here goes:

First of you each one of you has to make a decision because essentially there are only two choices to select from. You need to decide if you are gonna be a “picture bum” floundering around without direction, charging outrageously low prices that keep you poor and will eventually drive you out of the business or you can prepare yourself for a viable, productive and meaningful business by using logic, business savvy and great craftsmanship. If you have not considered this and don’t have any experience as yet, you will have to plan for some photographic education where you will learn the basics and the rules as well as the fine points and creative aspect of professional photography. So many photographers begin to run before the can walk and that is the fast track to unmitigated disaster in the business and professional world. Well that’s a subject for another article so let look more into pricing.

If I were a really mean old geezer, I would tell most of the people who are endlessly dabbling in photography and waiting to wake up one morning and discover that they have magically become a professional photographer, to get their heads out of the butts or out of the clouds and smell the fresh air and go in for a reality check! Since I am a nice guy I will tell y’all to get you head out of the low priced photography subculture and examine the ways that all successful businesses operate- not only photographers.

The first thing you need is a superior product- many cuts above the low priced department store and supermarket hack and all the cheap “photofinishing” prices that are prevail there. Your work can not look, resemble or smell like that stuff otherwise you are damned to a life of competing with loss leader mass production prices, They are paying young students minimum wage for shooting that stuff and charging mini-lab (OK digital lab) prices to the customers. Profits are marginal but it is made up in high quantity and it brings people into the store.
YOU CAN’T OPERATE THAT WAY- You don’t make YOUR real money on made in China underwear, electronics and house wear products.

Just like any other business or product provider, you have to produce a better mouse trap to charge the extra bucks and hopefully the big bucks. People buy benefits not features. They don’t really care what kind of camera you use as long as the final product is of benefit to them. If the look better in your portraits, if you work is commensurate with the life styles, appeal to their propensities for prestige products (snob appeal) and your service is of a higher quality than the rest of the lot- they WILL pay the extra bucks. If you sell prints that are the same size, shape and quality as department store photofinishing, why should anyone pay you more? The remedy: Don’t sell that crap! You have to change your packaging and engage in more creative shooting and marketing. Most importantly you need to PACKAGE YOURSELF AS AN ARTIST- folks pay good money for art but they wanna spend pennies for photofinishing- you can’t blame customers for that- it is a matter of reality and customer perception.

If you are in a marketplace consists of people don’t appreciate your good work or can’t afford to pay for it, you have to seek out markets that WILL pay.

Let’s say that for all intents and purposes you work is at a good level of professionalism, you have a great product and are ready to rock ‘n’ roll. How do you create a price list?

Pricing?? I see here that people are just arbitrarily bandying about numbers with no real basis. OK- someone mentioned overhead expenses and that is a good start. Determining prices and creating a logical price list is a science. It is good to know what your competition is doing but you really can’t govern you pricing practices based on anyone else’s. That is because you have to consider all YOUR business and personal expenses as a starting point. Although you can’t draw large salaries from a brand new business, you ARE eventually, more sooner than later, going to be depending on your business income to support the business’s and your personal financial requirements so you have to plan for that in your prices.

Let’s say the studio owner down the road has a fairly big operation, has employees to pay and a family to support and leads a fairly higher end lifestyle. He has the right product to sell to his clientele and his prices are clearly high end.
Now- the other photographer down the road is content to live in a closet in back of his studio, only needs enough money to feed his cat and himself and is a one man band kinda operation. Obviously he can and probably does charge less. OK if the latter case seems silly to you just change the scenario slightly. He could be the guy or gal who earns a good living at his day job or other profession and works in photography for personal edification, fun and pocket change. In all three of theses examples you cannot, in any way, base your prices on what anything they are doing or charging. Keep theses thoughts in abeyance for a while and let’s look and something else that is related- costing systems.

One important principle is to separate overhead costs and expenses and costs of sales. The overhead expenses are fixed expenses including the costs of doing business. Theses expenses such as rent, mortgage payments, advertising and promotional expenses, utilities, office expenses, telephone and communications (Internet etc.), insurance premiums, equipment maintenance, automotive expenses, payroll and YES- you own salary, even if it is modest. Theses expenses need to be paid, month after month, regardless of the volume of business you are doing and the revenues you are bringing in.

Costs of sales are the moneys you spend to purchase supplies, merchandise and the outsourced services you require to satisfy your contracts and customer orders. Theses expenses will fluctuate depending on you volume of business.

Now comes the math: Let’s suppose you buy an item for $100.00 and sell it for $200.00. Surprisingly enough, so many photographers, especially when they are starting out, are under the misapprehension that they have made 100% or in this case $100.00 profit. This is because they have not factored in their overhead or operational expenses. Just for the sake of this exercise let’s say that your annual overhead expense is $80,000. Suppose again you did 300 assignments, so you divide 80,000 by 300 and you will find that you have to assign $266.66. to each of those assignments plus the $100. cost of sale item in order to determine your real expenses and mark up for your profit from that point. If things are not working as to profitability you need to either lower your costs and expenses, increase your volume or raise your prices. As long as you have a handle on all theses factors, you can more easily make pricing and promotional decisions. By just arbratrelly stabbing at prices willy-nilly you will quickly loose control and fail.

As you can now see that a logical business plan is needed along with goals, projections and cost analysis. At the same time you need to consider your promotional expenses and plans to advertise your business and inform your potential clients as to your offerings benefits and logical price ranges.

There are hundreds of other concepts of marketing and pricing and they all can’t be encompassed in a post or article such as this one. I, however, can’t over emphasize the concept of separating yourself as far as you can from mediocre work. It starts with little things such as calling 4x5s, 5x5s “portrait miniatures” and selling them in folders and frames that are not available on the photofinishing counters of supermarkets and department stores. Market antique style cameo frames and modern squares for your small prints- use paper with textured surfaces and coat them with a crystal clear lacquer so the look like painted miniatures. Market more large canvas mounted portraits and sell the small ones only in conjunction with big ones. Consider fashionable decorative trends such as Art Deco, Victorian, modern and Euro. Offer mini galleries of small prints and collages if you are going to offer the smaller sizes.

I have NEVER sold a high res. CD or a negative in my life except for commercial images that are required for offset printing. My customer buy large and well crafted prints which are beautifully retouched, mounted and framed.

I sincerely hope this helps. Being a consummate professional photographer, running a business and designing concepts and price structures is tough stuff and hard work. Having the right POSITIVE attitude is just as important as well. You can’t go around blaming the clients or the low ball competition for your business problems. You have to own them, trouble shoot them and solve them because you are your own boss and you are the final arbiter of how your business will operate.

Like all successful businesses you have to consider uniqueness, inventiveness, public relations and advertising efforts, presentation, marketing strategies and continual change and improvement. All of this must be reflected in your prices.

Ed

[waple]

You have to realize that not all photos are put online to be sold at a profit, and not everyone is claiming to be a pro.

I have family galleries on my site that are sold at cost because I'm not going to charge my mom a profit on photos I took of her on mother's day. Granted, my family photos are hidden, but other people post shots they took while hanging out with friends and they aren't trying to make a profit. They just want thier friends to be able to print out photos too.

Another case, I shoot events and new members at my chruch and I do it for free as a service to the church. I post images of events and of the members in the galleries at cost and so they can even download them for free. I'm purposely not trying to make a profit off this.

Just playing devil's advocate here.

[Not4wood]

Ed,

Great explaination. Marketing, Management control, cost control and other ideas that have been learned thru experience. You cant teach these ideas to someone who is not willing to learn.

The person who is under Charging is doing it for there own reasons, but the one person who is charging less so they can get everyone elses business hasn't learnt the idea that they will fail in the long run. They actually think they are doing better then someone who is charging a lot more and getting over. Thats the bottom line, and this person is Not a threat to the honest hard working, real quality, real experience and that cares for there clientele.

To the people who are not charging, shooting for relatives/friends or for the Churches this thread is for people who want to charge and are trying to make a Profit and trying to learn how to set a price. Your comparing Apples and Oranges.

As far as someones post about trying to get a job at a Studio to learn. This is how its supposed to be done, just have patience you will find a place to work but you must keep at it. There is always someone who doesn't want to share in there knowledge. Thats the nature of the beast and they cant help it that there threatened by every shadow.

[Rodeoshooter]

Wow, there is some awesome information flying around here. The thoughts of many of you are right on. Not to say the others are democrats, just not as right. I have to tell all of you that you should read Ed Shapiro's post. Ed is so right you cannot believe it. Raising a family and supporting employees is what the goal of your studio should be if you want to be a PRO.

Those of you who are out there arguing with my thoughts should pay attention. This is not about making a little extra money. If you were charging $4 per print and selling a hundred prints per month for $400, imagine selling the same hundred prints and making $2,000. Now that is a little extra income. Just because you work out of your home doesn't mean you should go broke giving away photography. If you feel good when someone spends $10 on an 8x10 you sold them, imagine how you will feel selling the same 8x10 for $100. Now that is a Rocky Mountain High, not the brokeback low.

I have made comments below each person I am responding to. One person I didn't quote here is Waple and Waple said " You have to realize that not all photos are put online to be sold at a profit, and not everyone is claiming to be a pro." Well Waple I have to disagree with you. If you are putting photos up online with pricing attached, and your website says "Alliz Dog Studio" or "Professional Photographer" then you are claiming to be a Professional Photographer. An amateur photographer doesn't have a website named "STUDIO". Read Waple's post. I will respond to it later.

Originally Posted by ladyphotog

I couldn't agree more. There are plenty of people that still believe that you get what you pay for. My customers expect the best and will pay for it. All of you should have your customers thinking that way.

Amen! You know what I am talking about. Have some Karma! Nice to hear from you!

Originally Posted by brian.austin

All right already. We get the point. Yelling the same thing 10 times in a row doesn't mean we missed it the first 9 times or that it's 10 times more likely to happen.

Just a note on the $1,500 transparency vs giving away digital files: do you really think someone willing to pay $1,500 for a slide is going to look at the work of a giveway as the same level of photography? I really think you're talking about two different levels of client here. The person looking for a free giveway isn't even in your $1,500/slide market, imo. In other words, that person was never going to be your customer to begin with.

Brian,

I love ya buddy. You have some of the best posts around. I am not yelling the same things 10 times in a row. I am yelling it a 1,000 times or a million times because some people still don't get it. BTW I am not the only one yelling it. I am seeing people like Ed, Jimmyz and ladyphotog, who really know what it is about. It is great to talk about but doing it for 25 years or 50 years like Ed, that is what it is about.

About the $1500 giveaway. Yep, same thing. It started a couple of years ago and none of the Pros would giveaway their wedding files. Now every couple calls and wants the digital files included in $300.00 weddings. They don't know a damned thing about printing them or saving them or what to do with them, but they know they want them. NO WAY! People giving the stuff away has started a land slide and we have to slow it down. If we say no problem it is just this one time we are sadly mistaken. If you want to be proud of what you are doing step up and be a pro!

Originally Posted by 00silvergt

Wow, you can almost separate the full time pro's from the part-timers, just by their comments. my worthless entry:

Since we are focused on pricing and not really nitpicking quality, let's look at this example:

The Picture People. Free sitting fees. Prints are $18 for 1 8 x 10 or 2 5 X 7 or 8 wallets. So total cost of getting little Johnny's picture is $18 + tax. (The Picture People - Products: Sizes & Prices)

How do you compete with that? If you do as Rodeoshooter says, (No offense, bud, you know, I got nutin' but love for you homie, not brokeback mountain love though ) you will have one customer per year, one that didn't know to go to the mall.
(some cut by Rodeoshooter).

00silvergt,

Great job of noticing who is saying what. Have some Karma.

I offer a special on Tuesdays for children. $75 for the session and some prints. Only on Tuesdays and only for children under 12. People come in for it and comment on how nice it is not to be rushed like the malls. I spoke to my lab and they give me a break on the Terrific Tuesdays. These same clients will come back for Family and Seniors. When there is something special, my name is out front. Price is only one aspect of what we are dealing with and sometime in the future we will talk about the rest.

Originally Posted by 00silvergt

I also see it this way, before the Dot Gones, I was contracted on the side doing computer consulting since I was 11 years old. When I reached 18-19, I started to raise my pricing from ~7-8 an hour to ~20-30 an hour. Before the Geek squads, etc. I was charging $350 an hour for any client that needed my assistance, at my pinnacle, right before the bust.

However, I still charge $350 an hour, but I only have a few selected clients, ones that I've earned their trust, etc. and understand exactly what they are paying for. Not some kid who thinks they know what to do and sit there and guess all day on their computers or worst; mess it up.

If someone needed my assistance, I quote them my price and then I tell them to look at what the Geek Squad can do for them. If the Geek Squad can not help them, then come call me.

So I guess this applies here as well. If you are confident and have a strong client base, ones that won't dare go to a cheap studio, e.g. the Picture People, then by all means charge what your heart allows and what your client is willing to pay. However, you have to resign to the fact that unless you tailor your pricing to the audience, you will not gain the volume. (Cut to conserve space by Rodeoshooter)

You are right. I had a wedding client who happens to be my friend's daughter, email me from San Jose. She said she had spoken with a photographer here who was really good but was expensive. She asked if I would send her some prices for weddings. I sent the price list via email and she responded that my price list with a Twenty Two Thousand wedding package was a lot more expensive than the other photographer. I emailed back and told her I had never heard of the wedding photographer she was talking about, but that I wasn't surprised about the $20,000.00 difference in our top packages. I then told her I was busy on the day she wanted to get married and that she would have to look else where. I am sure I will be going fishing somewhere that day!

Originally Posted by Ed Shapiro

What I am going to write is not gonna be liked by a lot of people around here but I’m gonna write it anyway. If it helps one or two folks who are aspiring to a career in professional photography I will be pleased.
I have made my living as a professional photographer for the past 50 years- we (my lovely wife and I) have fed, sheltered, raised and educated our children, provide ourselves and our kids with a decent lifestyle, drove safe and decent cars, helped and participated in our community and had a lot of fun along with a lot of long days and hard work.
(Center removed please read Ed's full statement)
Like all successful businesses you have to consider uniqueness, inventiveness, public relations and advertising efforts, presentation, marketing strategies and continual change and improvement. All of this must be reflected in your prices.
Ed

Ed,

Sir, I liked what you said a couple of days ago on another thread. I am a big fan of yours'. You have made so many eloquent and TRUE statements here. I am over whelmed with the quantity and profoundness of your comments. I cannot add to your statements other than to say, I am PROUD to be a member of the same Profession as you.

God Bless you Ed. I would be honored to call you a friend anytime!

[Rodeoshooter]

Originally Posted by waple

You have to realize that not all photos are put online to be sold at a profit, and not everyone is claiming to be a pro.

I have family galleries on my site that are sold at cost because I'm not going to charge my mom a profit on photos I took of her on mother's day. Granted, my family photos are hidden, but other people post shots they took while hanging out with friends and they aren't trying to make a profit. They just want thier friends to be able to print out photos too.

Another case, I shoot events and new members at my chruch and I do it for free as a service to the church. I post images of events and of the members in the galleries at cost and so they can even download them for free. I'm purposely not trying to make a profit off this.

Just playing devil's advocate here.

Mister you are wrong in so many ways. The first thing I want to say is Don't take what I am about to say as me being mad at you. The comments will get pretty strong before I am finished but I don't want you, nor anyone else to think that I am intending to slam you. I will apologize in advance in case you take what I have to say personally. I don't know you and we could have been friends at some time or place. I am hot about this subject and you have touched a couple of buttons.

I want to state that I give plenty of my work away, depending on the cause. I am confused about the statement you made about: "I have family galleries on my site that are sold at cost because I'm not going to charge my mom a profit on photos I took of her on mother's day.". Who the hell would even think of charging their mother for photos? Son, you are way off base here. I never said not to share photos with your family or friends. What are you doing posting photos with prices for your family? Shame on you!

What I am talking about is people who, like you go out and get a website and give it a studio name. If your website is named "Your Studio" instead of Joe's family site, then you might think you are a Pro.

The whole goal in naming a website "Your Studio" and posting pictures (note I didn't use the term portraits on purpose) with a price on them, would be to sell the pictures. If you are selling pictures on your Studio website then you are trying to be a Professional Photographer. The problem is you are not being honest with yourself about what your real intentions are.

You talk about giving away photos, no selling photos to the church folk. You ramble about them buying it for cost but being able to download the photos for free. You then state: "I'm purposely not trying to make a profit off this.". I understand you are trying to recover your expenses. RIGHT? Wrong!