Selling Portraits or Scared by all the cheap prices

[brian.austin]

Originally Posted by kennyb53

Who is that woman in your avatar, she is beautiful.

My avatar? A model that I worked with in Phoenix.

[Rodeoshooter]

Here I thought he was talking about my avatar!

Originally Posted by brian.austin

My avatar? A model that I worked with in Phoenix.

[Mark McCall]

Originally Posted by camrajoky

I happen to work for a national Portrait studio...but we see our market as the middle to upper income portion of the market....yes we get our share of the lower side....but on a national average we are seeing our company average of those who choose to purchase....OVER $200.00 per sale on an AVERAGE.

I wouldn't classify $200 average sales as mid or upper end market.
That falls in the lower bracket in just about any market.

On another note, I think photographers go overboard when complaining about lower priced competitors.
The Cadillac dealership and Kia dealership coexist next door to each other, and have for years.
Each services a different area of the market.
(You don't hear the Cadillac guys complaining about the Kia prices).

[camrajoky]

I think I left out the fact that we are doing Volume shooting. Not your standard studio that only shoots 4 sittings a day and thinks they have done so much work. We do an average of 25 sittings a day and yet do the $200.00 sales average.

[swampthing1117]

I read a little of this thread and while i agree with the OP, there's a problem.

You're preaching to the choir. Most of the dirt cheap photographers don't read forums like this, they hang out on sites like flickr or whatever other lame photo sharing site there is where they post horrid pictures they took and then get patted on the back by all the other horrible photographers only further fueling their ambition.

I think by and large photography as a profession is dead. I just looked at the local paper's website for engagement's. there were 12 listed there. Out of those 12, only TWO were professionaly taken, the rest were horribly amateur looking like they were shot with point and shoot. Same goes with last years senior yearbook. I think the senior class was around 120 or so kids. Out of those 120 kids maybe 40 were professionally shot the rest were home shot or shot by a friend and looked realy bad.

I hate to say it but photography as a business is dying and quite frankly i lay the blame square at the feet of the very people making our cameras. They keep marketing these point and shoots as "good as the pro's" and people are beleiving it. I blame it on the digital rebels where a weekend shooter buys a 700$ camera and now thinks he's a pro. There's more to photography than a camera but the marketing always leaves that part out.

[Mark McCall]

Originally Posted by camrajoky

I think I left out the fact that we are doing Volume shooting. Not your standard studio that only shoots 4 sittings a day and thinks they have done so much work. We do an average of 25 sittings a day and yet do the $200.00 sales average.

That kind of volume, with those sales averages sounds more like a budget based operation instead of a mid-high level target. (nothing wrong with that business model BTW).

Originally Posted by swampthing1117

I think by and large photography as a profession is dead. I just looked at the local paper's website for engagement's. there were 12 listed there. Out of those 12, only TWO were professionaly taken, the rest were horribly amateur looking like they were shot with point and shoot.

I dunno.
Newspapers, with the exception of some county or weekly newspapers, now charge a large fee to run engagements annoucements.
Some couples opt out, some have pro photographers shoot their wedding, & bridal, but Uncle Bob does the engagements.

Originally Posted by swampthing1117

I hate to say it but photography as a business is dying and quite frankly i lay the blame square at the feet of the very people making our cameras. They keep marketing these point and shoots as "good as the pro's" and people are beleiving it. I blame it on the digital rebels where a weekend shooter buys a 700$ camera and now thinks he's a pro.

Of course they're marketing consumer cameras it as "good as the pros".
They're in business, just like you are.

Originally Posted by swampthing1117

There's more to photography than a camera but the marketing always leaves that part out.

Very true.
The key word here is MARKETING.
If your losing work to weekend warriors, that's not a manufacturer's fault.
Your not marketing yourself as a different level of product than the part timers.
Stop fighting a weekender on his terms.

[Songman45]

Originally Posted by Mark McCall

I wouldn't classify $200 average sales as mid or upper end market.
That falls in the lower bracket in just about any market.

On another note, I think photographers go overboard when complaining about lower priced competitors.
The Cadillac dealership and Kia dealership coexist next door to each other, and have for years.
Each services a different area of the market.
(You don't hear the Cadillac guys complaining about the Kia prices).

Mark,

I fully agree with you analogy where luxuary cars and economy boxes go. Where photogrpaphy is concerned I don't think the line is always so clear between. Those KIA guys are quite obvioulsy target marketing to the cost conscious buyer looking for bare bones transportation, Cadalliac is GM's luxuary line and is targeted to the buyer wanting plush appointments and creature comforts.

Unfortunately, the quality of either might be just fine. Is KIA a product that holds together and serves the buyer's need for the long term? Will a KIA rapidly degrade in ride handling and drivetrain preformance? How about that Cadalliac. will those added enhancements last the lifetime of the chasis and drivetrain? This is not a compairison of of a superior product over an inferior one. We're contrastin two equally, perhaps, well built vehicles from reputable makers. In the end the driver and passenger in either will arrive at his destination relatively comfortable and on time.

So, are we saying that the primary difference in the big box, high volume portrait operation and the private elitest operation is in the fluff and puff? Are both providing a high quality product that will last for years with the major difference being in things like background selections dramatic lighting effects and ellaborrate posing props? I would hope so. I wish that what separated the high-end studio from the boutique operation had nothing to do with product quality.

I see the major friction in the medium and low end, cost wise, roducers. I'll cointinue using your KIA analogy. We don't see one dealership offering KIAs cheap because some units are missing key components. I don't believe I have seen deep discounts for things like mismatched paint on components, or windows that don't open and close. There's not a KIA dealership that sells the #1 grade units at full list and another dealership that handles units that did not pass quality assurance inspection.

Sayng, "You get what you pay for" is not saying less expensive equals inferior quality.

[Mark McCall]

Originally Posted by Songman45

Sayng, "You get what you pay for" is not saying less expensive equals inferior quality.

That's exactly what I'm saying.
Comparing Cadillac to Kia is comparing apples to oranges. There's a huge difference in quality.
To illustrate, sit behind the wheel of each auto...then listen to the sound when you shut the door.

But I think overall we're agreeing.

Budget based photography has it's place. It fits a specific market need.
Higher end photographers (and photography) services an entirely different market need.

Higher end photographers who complain about cheaper priced photographers have missed the boat entirely.
Cheap photographers are not even our competitors.
The client that hires them will never hire you...and visa versa.

...because we service two entirely different markets.

[Rodeoshooter]

Mark,

I think what he was saying was when you are shopping for a Cadillac or a Kia you can see what the product is before you buy it.

Most people don't know how good a photographer is unless they have experienced the photographer in the past. When most people see someone's work they don't know how well the photographer will do with a wedding when all the photographer shows is one portrait and a bunch of scenics.

Heck, look here at the Camel. Post a photo and the comments you hear the most are:
1. I love it.
2. It's so cute.
3. Great picture.
Instead of going into specifics about the lighting, the composition and the posing in the image the commenter strokes the person by making warm and friendly comments about the photo. Is this so they will be liked? It isn't to help the poster become a better photographer. Most of the people here wouldn't know a great photo if it slapped them in the head. They have no experience in photography, they just want someone to love their pictures. People who are not familiar with photography have no idea about background lighting, hair lights and the ratio between fill and main lights. They have no idea about retouching or color balance or even if a sharp focus is an important part of an image. They simply look and say "WOW Bill, this is a great photo, I really like it". What qualifications do they have to judge the quality of the photo they see. NONE. They simply for the most part are reacting to a provoking feature of the photo be it because it is a family member or something they have an emotional attachment to the photo. Not the same thing with a Cadillac or a Kia.

Most people who approach me concerning their poor photos complain the work is not like the work they were shown. Fraud would be a good word but most people would say they "mis-spoke" when the photographer sold them the bill of good. The lab made a mistake is what most of those photographers tell the suckers who bought the photographers double speak.

People who go to Olan Mills or Walmart know they are not getting the best work. But most people think they are getting a higher quality product when they go to a "Professional Photographer" only to find out the reason the prices were cheap was because the photographer was not as good as Olan Mills or Walmart.

It is like the touchy feely Dutch method of rewarding everyone for just entering a contest instead of teaching them what is good and what is not. Let them be proud they received an award for a crummy photo. Doesn't mean they will learn anything but it does mean they will be happy with a substandard product and believe they "won" an award for doing a good job. Bring down the level of competition and you will have crummy photos winning every time in the future.

Originally Posted by Mark McCall

That's exactly what I'm saying.
Comparing Cadillac to Kia is comparing apples to oranges. There's a huge difference in quality.
To illustrate, sit behind the wheel of each auto...then listen to the sound when you shut the door.

But I think overall we're agreeing.

Budget based photography has it's place. It fits a specific market need.
Higher end photographers (and photography) services an entirely different market need.

Higher end photographers who complain about cheaper priced photographers have missed the boat entirely.
Cheap photographers are not even our competitors.
The client that hires them will never hire you...and visa versa.

...because we service two entirely different markets.

[Ellbee99]

Hope this isn't OT but, one thing that we suggest people do is make sure they see some of the photographers actual photographs. We know at least one photog around here that uses the stock images on mailers that the printing company provides....the only "real" picture is his own. We've seen his work and it is not good at all but, look at his literature and he ROCKS!!

Photocamel is not only for pros...some people post to get the "good job, Al" comments and for me that is ok. When someone asks for C&C I try to be honest but, kind. I try not to give C&C unless it is asked for because sometimes just a pat on the back or a little nudge in the right direction is all that is needed. JMHO

[Rodeoshooter]

I agree all customers should do the same thing when making a purchase. We have had several photographers in the area go with John Something or the other who was marketing sales to local photographers. You used his words and products to sell your work. Quite a few of the photographers used his products and it was funny to see the same thing over and over on brochures from different photographers.

I had a local photographer who was making comments to High School Seniors about 15 years ago about my work not being mine. He knew better, but he thought he had a gimmick that was working for him. One day a senior told me about it and I just turned to her and her friend, who was an ambassador for the other studio. I simply asked "Did you hear anything about him having aids"? Never heard another comment from the guy who left his wife and three young boys for another man. Maybe wasn't the nicest thing to say but he got the message. Nothing was ever said again by him or me.

I understand the camel is not just for pros. But there seems to be a lot of people who want to be pros. They market themselves and pump their chests about how good they are. Then they put photos out for a c & c. Being nice isn't helpful to them. Being honest is.

Most of the people on the camel want to be nice and helpful so they make comments about how nice the work is. I am not against being nice to people. I am saying if you are doing a c & c then make it worthwhile so someone can learn from it. Patting someone on the back and telling them the photos are good just to make them feel good isn't helpful. It's nice but not helpful. I want to be friendly and helpful not just give someone lip service. I think this is a better way to help people improve their work.

Originally Posted by Ellbee99

Hope this isn't OT but, one thing that we suggest people do is make sure they see some of the photographers actual photographs. We know at least one photog around here that uses the stock images on mailers that the printing company provides....the only "real" picture is his own. We've seen his work and it is not good at all but, look at his literature and he ROCKS!!

Photocamel is not only for pros...some people post to get the "good job, Al" comments and for me that is ok. When someone asks for C&C I try to be honest but, kind. I try not to give C&C unless it is asked for because sometimes just a pat on the back or a little nudge in the right direction is all that is needed. JMHO

[Songman45]

I think Shooter and Mark and I all feel the same way, we just say it different. Ya'll (yes, that's Texan) know I'm not a quareller. Its just tha