Selling Portraits or Scared by all the cheap prices

[Lee4145]

Originally Posted by jfrancho

I win, because I'm going to do it for $600.

$600?! FFS!

I need to get a shingle and some lessons...

[KellyL]

Check out this link. The founder of Bella photography encourages giving your digital negatives to the bride so she can create her own album and save a ton of money:

For your enjoyment

[brian.austin]

Originally Posted by KellyL

Check out this link. The founder of Bella photography encourages giving your digital negatives to the bride so she can create her own album and save a ton of money:

For your enjoyment

I don't think she "encouraged" photographers. She was selling her business more than anything else. It's a marketing tool she chooses to use. Good adapt to a changing market.

[Ellbee99]

Ok...I was a Mickey D's yesterday and saw a "pro" photog there with a bag from Rite Aid filled with photographic 4x6 envelopes...he was talking to some guy there with a few photo albums. I said "hi " then I realized he was showing his finished "portraits" to this other guy. It hit me what was going on...I excused myself and sat down.

This "pro" was giving his "client" his "finished " wedding portraits...complete with the Rite Aid bag that the prints came in!!!!!!!! Wow! I immediately thought of this thread. After the groom left the photog came over to talk to us...I found out he charges $995 for full day coverage, all the prints and the negatives. I am definitely going to raise my prices!

There is a niche for everyone...he has his and I've got mine...vey interesting though...makes you think.

[Brooks]

Wonder why you never see Wedding Planners, Florists, Cateriers, Wedding Cake makers and DJ's doing business out of the local McDs ?

Could it be that only "professional" Wedding Photographers are adapting to this changing market in this way?

[Ellbee99]

Originally Posted by Brooks

Wonder why you never see Wedding Planners, Florists, Cateriers, Wedding Cake makers and DJ's doing business out of the local McDs ?

Could it be that only "professional" Wedding Photographers are adapting to this changing market in this way?

At least don't admit your images came from a drug store...whatever floats your boat...just thought of this thread and decided to share.

So many "consumers" have point and shoot digital cameras so now the "pros" are going back to film? HHHmmmmmmm..........

[Brooks]

Originally Posted by Ellbee99

So many "consumers" have point and shoot digital cameras so now the "pros" are going back to film? HHHmmmmmmm..........

In the world of commercial photography very few, if any, are going back to film. Even Architectural photographers are using MF digital backs on small view cameras but only when they need swings and tilts. Otherwise A digital Hasselblad with a 39MP back seems to be the thing.

[Ellbee99]

Originally Posted by Brooks

In the world of commercial photography very few, if any, are going back to film. Even Architectural photographers are using MF digital backs on small view cameras but only when they need swings and tilts. Otherwise A digital Hasselblad with a 39MP back seems to be the thing.

I know I was joking.

[after]

I'm glad I waited to chime in on this... I think everyone is almost tuckered out

Couple of things...
1) What is an acceptable price to charge for prints... Really? No one wants to say it, but they want to complain when people aren't charging an acceptable amount... Anyone care to show us all a price list for appropriately priced prints? We all want to say it's what you feel you are worth... or what covers your overhead... or some silly notion like that... but putting it out there in the open would help out a lot (I'll even cut some slack and say post appropriate price ranges for each of the common print sizes). ??
2) I really get a lot of educations from various sources. One is a CD set called "getting what you are woth" by a guy named Mark Ferrell. Now if you check out this CD set, the first thing you'll notice is that it was directed towards DJs... Guess what... I get a lot of good information aimed at other career fields that photographers haven't oversaturated yet... One of my favorite parts of this CD, is when he was explaining this hair salon, let's call it "BIG Hair Salon". BIG Hair Salon was really upset when a new hair cutting placed moved in next door and were advertising $10 hair cuts on a big billboard sign on the front of the building. BIG Hair Salon was upset - felt that they were loosing business to the new $10 hair cut place... Until... A really smart owner at BIG Hair Salon decided to get an even bigger sign... and it said "We Fix $10 Hair Cuts"....
3) I posted on another part of this site... but again... The most wise thing I have heard is "Charge until you are happy"... that's right folks, if you don't like doing wedding pictures, set your prices to the height that makes you happy... If you don't want to give/sell clients negatives... price negatives at a price that makes you happy... whatever it is... make it high enough that you are happy to do it.
4) I am probably one of the "low priced" print people... although I promise you my prints are not $0.24 each That is part of the first question here... There are some like me that aren't sure what they should be charging... while my smaller prints are fairly inexpensive...there is more of a profit margin than the more expensive larger prints... I am able to keep things a little more evenly incremental that way... but perhaps I am wrong. I see so many folks pricing 4x6 (or 4x5 or whatever) at $6, but they turn around and price 5x7's at $10, and then 8x10's at $15.... what the heck?! That doesn't seem right... does it?

I think a lot of the problem has to do with not knowing what appropriate fees are... some of lower quality are thinking that lower prices would make a difference (price comiscerate with quality), and... as artists... most of us have a tendancy to undervalue our work And customers shopping for deals sure don't help.

Case in point... last bridal show I paid for, they want each vendor to provide an item for a grand prize giveaway.... I donated a free engagement session w/11x14 print (which was supposed to only be valid for this winter - when my business slows down)... stupid I know... but I thought good thing to do... they'll announce my name several times durring the show... and I'll get added extra advertising... Well the girl that got the prize set up her appointment at the beginning of summer (my busy season - but I went ahead and complied with her without saying anything), while in the studio she bragged to me that she had actually won 2 free engagement sessions... and whichever pictures she liked the best, she was going to order more pictures of it... I was thinking oh great, here we go... She must have liked my pictures best, because she showed up today and just surprised me (no call - which I work on appointment only) and I was out of the office - so I made a special trip into the studio for her because she was wanting to order a few additional enlargements. After taking her order and informing her that she has to pay for the order before I will process it... She wanted to know the total to write me out a check. I tell her the total, and I look at her, and she looks like she has just seen a ghost. I told her I can see by your reaction that maybe you were expecting something different.... Turns out.. the price I quoted her ($85) was way too much...

So, after explaining to her why my print prices are higher than the discount chains, I advised her to go home and think about it, and get back in touch with me once she had made her decision on what to order. I feel like she was trying to get additional prints for little of nothing as well... and I wasn't going to do it. She already got a free engagement session & 11x14 out of it... she isn't getting any more!

So when things like that happen, you begin to think.... maybe I'm charging too much!! That's why even experienced people need reminders on value.

[OdzBodkinz]

This has been an interesting thread. Albeit, some emotion has run a little high, but informative nonetheless. I have to wonder though why it makes any difference to anyone else what someone charges...for anything.

Before I got married I used to perform strolling magic at restaurants and private parties. This type of thing always seemed to come up. Who charges what? Some guys charged an enormous fee, others charged very little. Some were middle of the road. It basically boiled down to the same thing....someone afraid that the industry was being ruined by someone else. it's no different in this case.

All I can say is, the best thing to do is worry about yourself. Are you really worried that someone is charging .24 cents for a 4x6, or more worried that their 4x6 is as good as yours? All things being equal, this argument is mostly about price....now, that's not to say that all things are ALWAYS equal. I understand that. I guess the bottom line is "so what?". Do you really think people don't realize that they can charge more? So they charge .24 cents, they are the only one who has to live with it.

[OdzBodkinz]

Originally Posted by Songman45

Pricing does not always set us apart. This is action sport photography the results are not judged on the artistic flair, just as long as the action is caught. So tell me again how the price of my product have nothing to do with whether or not I get all the sales available? Oh, and the scabs? Get used to them. They shouldn't be there and should not be allowed. They are not a priprity to anyone except us and making a wave at all might just prevent our being invited to the managements next event.

Perhaps then, you could adopt the "scabs" business practice of using less expensive equipment and passing out cards attached to your hat.

Joking aside, who makes the determination that they shouldn't be there and should not be allowed in? Obviously the management doesn't have a problem with it, it's their event. If your shooting team has better pictures than the weekend warrior, then you have nothing to worry about, right? You have a better product and you charge accordingly...the problem arises when you discover that maybe the athletes are satisfied with WW's pics and are happy to pay .24 cents or whatever the cost. It's nice that they have an option....if the option is of low quality, then they will gladly pay your price. I don't really see a problem here.

I occasionally shoot AutoX. I used to do it quite frequently a few years ago. I priced my 4x6's very affordably at about $4. They sold nicely...and I was happy. The drivers got a keepsake from their event, and I had fun shooting an event that I was already going to shoot anyway for fun. Eventually, there were others showing up on the course shooting alongside me. My sales went down as a result of some of the guys offering their pics for free downloads. No problem...I just stopped wasting my time shooting the events. The AutoX community didnt owe me anything by me being out there. I wasn't upset about it.

Overtime, those shooters stopped posting (must have figured out how much work it was), and I went back to shooting again this year. I actually lowered my price per piece and made more money for doing the same amount of work. Isn't that interesting? It was to me.

Anyway, if the other shooters show up again to give their pics away for free or for cheaper than me, I say God Bless Them. I'll figure out something else to do. Nobody owes me the opportunity to make money...that's just how I look at it. I still like shooting the AutoX (and photography in general) so my enjoyment won't likely wane anytime too soon.

[kgphoto]

Originally Posted by after

I'm glad I waited to chime in on this... I think everyone is almost tuckered out

Couple of things...
1) What is an acceptable price to charge for prints... Really? No one wants to say it, but they want to complain when people aren't charging an acceptable amount... Anyone care to show us all a price list for appropriately priced prints? We all want to say it's what you feel you are worth... or what covers your overhead... or some silly notion like that... but putting it out there in the open would help out a lot (I'll even cut some slack and say post appropriate price ranges for each of the common print sizes). ??

4) I am probably one of the "low priced" print people... I see so many folks pricing 4x6 (or 4x5 or whatever) at $6, but they turn around and price 5x7's at $10, and then 8x10's at $15.... what the heck?! That doesn't seem right... does it?

Case in point... last bridal show I paid for, they want each vendor to provide an item for a grand prize giveaway.... I donated a free engagement session w/11x14 print (which was supposed to only be valid for this winter - when my business slows down)..... .. Well the girl that got the prize set up her appointment at the beginning of summer (my busy season - but I went ahead and complied with her without saying anything), while in the studio she bragged to me that she had actually won 2 free engagement sessions... and whichever pictures she liked the best, she was going to order more pictures of it..... She must have liked my pictures best, because she showed up today and just surprised me (no call - which I work on appointment only) and I was out of the office - so I made a special trip into the studio for her because she was wanting to order a few additional enlargements. .. She wanted to know the total to write me out a check. I tell her the total, and I look at her, and she looks like she has just seen a ghost. I told her I can see by your reaction that maybe you were expecting something different.... Turns out.. the price I quoted her ($85) was way too much...

So when things like that happen, you begin to think.... maybe I'm charging too much!! That's why even experienced people need reminders on value.

#1 You say post your prices and then you don't even do it yourself. Kinda can't even walk your own talk huh?

That being said, it really doesn't matter what individual's prices are, as cost of living everywhere is not the same, so just because I can make a good living at $10/print doesn't mean you can, but if you seize on that price as an "acceptable" price, you still are charging the wrong amount.

#4 I don't think size of an print should have much to do with the cost. I think the value of the print is the image and the work that went into creating it and how it makes the viewer feel.

If you establish that the "value of an image" is $100.00, then you could price your products a $100 + "lab fees to make the print". So an 5x5 is $100.50, a 5x7 is $101.50 and an 8x10 is $103.75. Now of course I would modify the prices to camouflage this slightly and don't forget to add the shipping and handling charges. Maybe $100, $110, and $125. I know many studios that charge $75.00 per 4x5 for portraits.

Only wallets are offered at "cheap" prices, because a wallet is not a true portrait, but a memento. A family of six at 2x3 inches isn't really going to be seen. So they charge $75.00 for 8 wallets and only allow them to be purchased after the main purchase.

For portraits and much larger print sizes, additional costs would be the mounting, retouching, texturing, spraying, framing, additional time for ordering and specifying all these extra services and products, shipping and handling, etc.

Because a wedding contains service (coverage) and prints as well as an expected volume sale, you can charge more for the service part and lower your individual print prices because you are making up the difference on the service charge. That doesn't not mean price them so they are worthless. Me, the minimum value is $15.00 each. I don't give proofs away, nor do I supply CD's. I sell prints and accessories, albums frames and folios, and sometimes slide shows, which are set to music and embedded low resolution files so they can't be copied easily or well and it is only available with certain minimum orders or packages.

RE: "Case in point" Actually you should be saying to yourself, " I am not charging enough!"

Clearly she didn't respect anything she was getting as she read them for what they were, worthless things that were given away and had no value. They only had value IF she respected and liked them. So right off the bat, you cave in on all your "policies" , sitting and prints valueless, schedule doesn't mean anything, "appointments?" What's that?, etc.

OK, now your "pics" are not "bad" so how much to get these "copies"? WHAT!!?

On the other hand, you could have offered a session only and on the certificate indicate that appointments will only be accepted during the months of . ... because . . . (fill in a real good reason here).

Then when she called to set it up early, tell her no. I repeat No. You already got the advertising at the show, so you really don't need to produce the print at some different schedule that you agreed to. Your contract to deliver the prize is right there in writing, on the award certificate.,

Then explain that she can come in to schedule her pre-photography consultation now so she can prepare for it, but the session is still not going to happen until _____.

This gives you the opportunity to show your studio(image), samples, (quality) and educate her on how to get the best possible look in her engagement session.( What did they wear in the session you did- best possible clothing or just what they had on?) If she says no, don't sweat it, you don't want her as a customer anyway.

After you explain about the pre-photo consultation, ask the question this way, "So is an afternoon or evening appointment better for you? Don't give up your weekends for a consult. You are too busy shooting weddings (even if you aren't).

Then when you have wowed her with your work, try to book the wedding as well as the session. If she says she will have to wait to see what the other photogs do and/or you during the rest of the portraits, then don't worry. She may hire another and think you are a stick in the mud, but you still don't worry, because she is not the client you are looking for.

When you shoot her portrait, do the very best job you can. Pull out all stops. This is because on