Copyright and schools

[UBSeng]

Hmmm, my daughter had a project where she was supposed to include pictures of her research subjects. What does she do: she googles the subject and downloads/prints the pics.

That got me thinking: isn't this technically potentially illegal? Shouldn't the teacher make sure the kids get the photographers' permission? After all, kids should be able to trust their teachers.

I know this is really harmless but it is the foundation of the kids' belief that it is ok to just download pics. As if anything they find online is there for the taking. Next thing we know these guys are all grown up stealing photographs for more serious puropses (Dwight's thread comes to mind, you can search for that).

I'd really be interested to know what you think.

[cyclohexane]

For school presentations, they probably get away with fair use. I don't see a case being made if some kid researches someone, downloads an image from the internet, and includes it in a presentation for class.

That, and I wouldn't want to be the one who files against the kid. Hey, I was young once, and still am.

I know this is really harmless but it is the foundation of the kids' belief that it is ok to just download pics. As if anything they find online is there for the taking.

I think this happens without school projects allowing the inclusion of images obtained off the internet, with or without permission. There's enough encouragement online to share, share, share, and I doubt the fine print stating to only distribute your own stuff and stuff you have permission to distribute gets read by more than a few.

[Sparky98]

You do bring up a good point. When I was in high school in the 60s we were taught about plagiarism and how it was wrong to use someone's writings without giving them credit for having written the passage. Now schools also should be teaching students that it is wrong to use someone's pictures or writings that are posted on the internet without the authors permission and/or without giving them credit for having created the work. I am afraid many or most people think that anything on the internet is free for the taking.

[UBSeng]

Originally Posted by cyclohexane

I think this happens without school projects allowing the inclusion of images obtained off the internet, with or without permission.

I absolutely agree with you, but don't you think the schools/teachers have the responsibility to teach what is right and what is wrong? They shouldn't be asking for something that is not right and will add to the mindset "it's on the internet, therefore I can take it. No-one will know or care".

[cyclohexane]

don't you think the schools/teachers have the responsibility to teach what is right and what is wrong?

I could plug in "parents" in the place of schools/teachers there. Theoretically parents are the first ones to influence their children, but it seems that more and more Americans expect their children's schools and teachers to teach many things traditionally imparted through parenting. Right and wrong used to fall under the realm of parenting, but it looks like that's changed.

Most teachers are as clueless as the students are when it comes to taking things off the internet, especially if we're talking California public schools. We're ranked 50th in the nation (out of 50) for public K-12 education, but that's a whole 'nother issue not entirely relevant.

Besides, someone'll tout "fair use" anyways...

[Harry]

Doesn't sound like plagerism, and certainly no intent to use for finanacial gain.

[UBSeng]

If you click on any pic from Google images you'll see it says "Image may be scaled down and subject to copyright." next to the thumbnail.

If kids take pics from the web for projects it's not a problem in my opinion as long as they learn that this is a special case. Otherwise they grow up and continue to think it's ok. It's the mindset they get into.

If you do a search here on copyright infringement you'll find tons of threads. I would bet most of the people who stole pics did so without thinking it was a problem. And why? Because they grew up doing it from the time they were in elementary school.

[JohnC]

Copyright law does not make any distinctions that I can remember for financial gain. Making a copy of a music CD and giving it away is the same violation as making a copy and selling it. It is the act of copying it that breaks the copyright law, not what is done with it afterwards.

[PetersenPhotography]

John - there is an exception for fair use and education. However, the students need to cite their sources, otherwise its plagiarism. Is a web-site going to sue a kid over that? No. But the kids do need to learn to cite sources, instead of just saying "hey, it's on the internet, so why not?"

[happusa]

I work for a college and their policy absolutely forbids any type of plagiarism whether it be written, illustration or photograph. Any use of these will result in an immediate release from the school unless all permission and or credit is given to the author.

[oldugly]

The teachers I know (Middle & High school, and at college level) constantly harp on giving credit where it is due. We do have a problem with parents not knowing, or if they do, not caring. I must admit I used a photo in a class last year and it was only at the last minute I remembered to credit the source. Intent wasn't malicious, it was just a brain fart. (Oops, that should read "cognitive disconnect.") I wonder if the ease with which we can locate information makes us a bit careless with it.

[jfrancho]

John - there is an exception for fair use and education.

No, but there are plenty of periodicals, websites, and other resources that educators should have access to that do provide exceptions for educational purposes. Minors should not be encouraged to scour the web for images, and definitely not while unsupervised.

[PetersenPhotography]

"Section 107 contains a list of the various purposes for which the reproduction of a particular work may be considered “fair,” such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. Section 107 also sets out four factors to be considered in determining whether or not a particular use is fair:

1. the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;
2. the nature of the copyrighted work;
3. amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and
4. the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work."

So says the US copyright office. Educators fall under "scholarship" banner of the "Fair Use" clause, as would students.

I think that plaigiarism is the heart of the debate here, not fair use.

[UBSeng]

Originally Posted by jfrancho

Minors should be encouraged to scour the web for images, and definitely not while unsupervised.

Sorry, should or shouldn't?

Originally Posted by PetersenPhotography

I think that plaigiarism is the heart of the debate here, not fair use.

After bringing this to the teacher's attention she agrees that she should have told the kids to cite the source of the pics. She will also raise the subject with her collegues.

[jfrancho]

Originally Posted by UBSeng

Sorry, should or schouldn't?

should not

[evoryware]

as a student, currently, that just watched a girl fail due to plagiarism, I would highly suggest you give credit to the website the picture was taken from and who the photographer was even for educational purposes. I

[FatNakedGuy]

My daughter did a project on Howler Monkeys and we found a fantastic image on a website somewhere (don't recall).

She and I spent 5 minutes looking for the photographer of the image on the internet, emailed him for permission, and had an answer back within an hour from his assistant that it was OK to use for her school project. They thanked us for asking.

[UBSeng]

Originally Posted by FatNakedGuy

My daughter did a project on Howler Monkeys and we found a fantastic image on a website somewhere (don't recall).

She and I spent 5 minutes looking for the photographer of the image on the internet, emailed him for permission, and had an answer back within an hour from his assistant that it was OK to use for her school project. They thanked us for asking.

What a fantastic and positive lesson for your daughter

[ncmedix]

I used to do alot more teaching than I do now. About 5 years ago (before I caught the photography bug) I did a presentation on lightning injuries in pediadrics (children). While searching the internet for up to date medical information I came across 2 websites that had lightning photography. I decided I had to have some of these images to include in my presentation.

I emailed both photographers about including several of their pictures in my presentation. I explained what I was teaching, the audience, and that it was for educational purposes. I also stated that I would include a slide at the end of my presentation citing their website, name, and giving them credit for the pictures I had used. Both photographers emailed me back within 1 to 2 days with no objections to using their photos.

I opened my presentation with the song "Thunderstruck" by AC/DC (probably some copyright infringement on my part here) while a slide show of lightning pictures played for 2 minutes. From this second on I had the attention of my audience. To this day I still have people tell me they remember my class. Education inspired by photography. I love it!

I think it is great that you made your daughter take this 1 extra step. I'm sure she was happy to receive such permission and I am sure the photographer appreciated your admiration of his/her work. Now, shouldn't we all take the extra step with our children.

[Retronaut]

No need to go to all that trouble for educational purposes. Just acknowledge the source.