Clarify the laws surrounding photography in public places

[TrooperUK]

Hi, I don't know if this is the right place to post this but for anyone living in the UK, it might be of interest.

It's a petition to the Government to clarify the laws surrounding photography in public places.

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/photographylaw/

Through history, we have documented the world around us, whether through written word, art or photography.
Photography in particular has provided fantastic insights into the past and present, and is a hobby enjoyed by millions of people worldwide.
But today, it's becoming increasingly difficult to take photos of our surroundings, particularly in cities like London.
In recent years, the price divide between professional and consumer equipment has blurred, and it's quite common these days to see amateurs and hobbyists carrying around tripods, SLR cameras and a backpack full of equipment.
Yet, we are constantly harrassed by security guards and police officers in the name of preventing terrorism. They seem to be operating under a different interpretation of the law to the rest of us, believing that somehow the length of your lens, or size of your camera is relevant.
We would like clarification by the goverment on the law regarding photography of buildings and landmarks from public locations.

[kevgermany]

The trouble with things like this is that asking the govt. to step in is likely to result in a reduction of public rights - with excuses like individual privacy, terrorism and so on as justification. However clarity is needed...

[Benji]

Former US president Ronald Reagan said the most terrifying nine words in the English language are; "I'm from the government and I'm here to help."

Benji

[Catmechanic]

Here in the US a person can be arrested and fined for taking pictures at a Veterans Hospital and/or other government owned "public" places. The company I work for was hired to lift a semi trailer, which is a mobile MRI unit, into place at a local VA hospital. One lady who works for the MRI company wanted some photos of their $3,000,000 piece of equipment hanging on the crane hook(same crane as in my avatar) as they don't often need to be lifted into place. The VA police (yes,they have their own police force) proceeded to arrest her and issued her a fine (I think it was $175 or so) for taking pictures at a government facility.

I fail to see what national secrets could be revealed by some photos in this situation. Maybe they're afraid someone might see the shoddy treatment they give our military veterans to whom medical treatment was promised.

Sorry for the rant on vet's care in our country! Just wanted to give you an example of how someone taking a few pics can get treated. The last time we lifted this machine the VA sent their staff photographers out to take pictures. I have a copy of the cd, not exactly the quality I'd expect from someone who's job is taking photos, mostly just snapshots and not very good ones at that.

Jim S

[dcr]

A few points to clear up:

There must be a specific statute that you violate before you are arrested in the US. There is no law against taking pictures in or of a "government" facility. If you happen to find one, please post the code and section.

The police can't fine you. They can issue you a citation for an offense, for which you may plead no contest by paying the fine. If you wish to contest it, only the court can levy the fine.

[TrooperUK]

In the UK it's getting crazy. Not only are security guards telling you to stop taking photos they are demanding you hand over your memory card to them. There are even some members of the public who are taking things into there own hands and stopping photographers practising their hobby.
When will the madness go away?

[Douglas]

As long as our governments fear that everyone is a terrorist, it will only get worse. I fear the day you cant take a picture of some arcitecture or monument because its illegal to do so. Sadly, unless something changes, we are inching closer to this almost daily.

[ohenry]

It is NOT illegal to photograph from public areas. The security guards are wrong and abusing authority. Stand up for your rights and don't give in to wrongful actions. A few lawsuits against the companies will stop the nonsense. It is not government regulations that are taking away your rights, it's ill informed individuals.

[brian.austin]

Originally Posted by ohenry

It is not government regulations that are taking away your rights, it's ill informed individuals.

They'll only take as much as we're willing to give.

[Rodeoshooter]

AMEN! Let us start taking instead if giving!

Originally Posted by brian.austin

They'll only take as much as we're willing to give.

[Douglas]

Yeah. And unfortunatly, people back down to easy. But thats because those in authority lean a bit harder and are willing to bully.

Like that quote from 'V for Vendetta', "People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people.".

Unfortunatly, people are afraid of their governments. From the local on up. But its usually because they feel they are alone.

[Ed Shapiro]

We live in an ever-changing world, whether is is changing for the better or for the worse is a matter of one's philosophies and outlook on life.

I remember living through the "cold war" period as a kid in New York- talk about paranoia! Each day the air raid sirens would be tested at noon hour (the sound was enough to make you chuck your lunch) as was the emergency radio network announcements on radio and television.. There were shelter area drills at school and it was all enough to scare the dckens out of a kid until the "all clear" signals sounded or the radio announcer finally said the "if this were a REAL emergency..." . To reinforce the fear, there were live broadcasts of the nuclear testing at Yucca Flats, Nevada so we could all sit around the TV set and watch the mushroom clouds form in the sky and observe the dummy houses disintegrate before our very eyes. The Empire State Building was supposed to be ground zero which was was especially disconcerting to me because I could easily see it from the roof of my Brooklyn brownstone home- only a couple of miles away as the birds fly.

A the tender age of 10, I soon came to the harsh realization the going down to the school boiler room or crouch under the classroom desks would not serve as any kind of real protection WHEN the Russians dropped the big one on Midtown. That was all well and good because our B-29s were gonna go over and make Moscow the next Heroshima.

The joke around the school was "When you see the light flashing in the sky, put you head between your head between your knees and kiss you ass goodbye". I got into trouble with the principal for writing that next to the shelter area signs around the school building.

That era was not long after WW II and the conflict in Korea was raging. There were signs posted near all government instillations defense plants, airports, all indicating "NO PHOTOGRAPHS" The signs warned of outrageous fines and time in a Federal Penitentiary. My favorite walk across the Williamsburg Bridge from Brooklyn to the lower east side of Manhattan sported many of theses signers as that view looked right over the Brooklyn Naval Shipyard where warships were in for refitting and repair. It was a impressive view but not being a rich young fellow and not wanting to spend the rest of my life, at the governments largess, at Fort Leavenworth, Kansas (school was bad enough), I left my camera at home.

Over the years thereafter, things began to ease up, the prohibitive signs began to fade and were eventually taken down along with a lot of fear mongering and crazy propaganda that was prevalent at the time. Well- then came Perestroika and the fall of the Berlin Wall and all that good stuff and a couple of hockey games later all of us Yanks began to realize that ALL Russians were not monsters.

Sadly enough, all good times come to an end and enter 911. Now we no longer would "see" Soviet spies behind every tree- they have been replaced by international terrorists. Please don't mistake my sick sense of humor for a lack of concern or realization. The concerns are real and the paranoia is back! It is only natural that security folks are somewhat over-zealous and some will indeed overstep their authority. Fear causes all kinds of problems and not everyone in a uniform is intelligent and even if the all were, the are not allowed to exercise discretion- orders are orders.

In today's world of high definition satellite reconnaissance, plain old photography is relatively harmless. There is a Naval HQ building in town that is not to be photographed. I was told that top secret files were kept in there and some of the powers that be think that a photographer armed DSLR can see theses documents from outside and 300 feet from the building.

To exacerbate the situation, we also live in a highly litigious society where every one is suing everyone else. Movie stars are selling their baby pictures to gossip magazines for zillions of dollars and the average guy on the street expects total privacy as he walks around town. There are property rights, copyrights and all kinds of right that have not as yet been defined. The day may come when photographers won't be able to photograph city skylines because the cities will want to sell postcards and will have exclusive rights to their scenery. Don't laugh!

Public parks are oftentimes off limits for wedding photography unless fees are paid. Not that photographer are entirely innocent either- they step in flower beds, in the olden days the littered the landscape with film wrappers and spent flashbulbs, tripped people with tripod legs, blocked traffic and made spectacles of themselves. Lets not even talk about the paparazzi and the havoc the have reeked on the world.

There are other serious problems. When people vacation and travel abroad, the forget that other countries have entirely different laws about lots of things including photography. There are place where fines can be issued and film or memory card seized. The may be places where photographing a sacred shrine or even pretty ladies can buy you a one way trip to a dungeon or get you beheaded. Talk about loosing your head!

As a full time professional photographer some of theses issues can be extremely problematic and aggravating. It is beginning to seem that as soon as I go out on location or fly to a destination assignment you are in physical, psychological and financial peril. manage to hold on to my film and memory cards and never get arrested or loose my head. Here's the formula:

1. Never assume anything- always research the rules and double check them.
2. Remember that the purchase of a camera, even an expensive one, does not come with a license or the right to go and do what ever you want with it- like it or not, there are restrictions.
3. Never under any circumstance argue with a guard, police officer or security official. In some countries this can endanger your freedom or your life. If you are told not to shoot- get out of there ASAP!
4. This is the BIG ONE! Acting in a professional and courteous manner will get you more cooperation. If you think you may encounter a problem at any place or venue it is best to ASK PERMISSION before shooting anything. You need to give respect in order to receive respect. If shooting in a restricted area is part of an assignment, make sure that you take the time to make arrangements well in advance if you need special dispensation, permission or permits. Get everything in writing and request that all on site authorities are well informed of your arrival and departure times and the nature of your business. I know for a fact that this works! I have been allowed into museums before and after hours and given access to all kind of valuable artifacts and art. I have photographed commercial concessions (such as restaurants and cafeterias, in highly scoured military instillations and even provided with an officer to escort me to all the locations without having to dodge flack from uninformed guards. I have found that most people will want to help you if you allow them enough time to secure clearance, make decisions and navigate through procedures. If there is no way to secure permission- DON"T GO THERE!
5. Sadly enough it is the discourteous and ill advised actions of both professional and amateur photographers that have caused so many of theses restrictions to be enacted.
6. Believe me- suing city hall, the federal government or a large corporation is not realistic unless you are independently wealthy and have a lot of time on your hands. Most law firm will require a retainer of many thousands of dollars and work at rates in excess of $250.00 per hour.
7. Be well advised regarding customs procedures, work permits and other documentation well before embarking on an international assignment or holiday.
8. There are regions in many countries where being photographed have bad connotations as to local or tribal traditions, superstitions and religious beliefs. There are place where photographing on the sabbath is regarded as an offense- plan ahead and be careful.

In my entire life, I have only had one incident, in Toronto, Ontario where I was accosted by a policeman while doing some casual street photography. He asked for my drivers license and approached me, for no operant reason, in a hostile manner. I exchanged his viewing my license for my viewing his ID number. I simply called the incident in to the police department and was told to address my complaint to the office of the Chief of Police. Most major police departments in North America have serious complaint departments to see that police officers do not infringe on people's rights. My letter we quickly attended to and the offending officer was called on the carpet and was up for dismissal if he did not conform to a series of corrective training procedures. I was kept up to date with the issue and was even asked my opinion as to whether or not the investigation should continue or if I felt that enough was done to address my complaint. In the end,the matter was settled amicably. It's perfectly fine to complain but without fuss, expense and incident. In the end, you get more with honey than with vinegar.

Ed

[Rodeoshooter]

Great post Ed. I too remember those days. I had to laugh when one of the photographers on Camel was calling his packages Nuclear and Atomic, as these brought back thoughts of destruction and death. Yet here was a young one who had no concept of what fear those words brought forth.

[Ron65]

Originally Posted by ohenry

It is NOT illegal to photograph from public areas. The security guards are wrong and abusing authority. Stand up for your rights and don't give in to wrongful actions. A few lawsuits against the companies will stop the nonsense. It is not government regulations that are taking away your rights, it's ill informed individuals.

Very well stated and very accurate !!!

[Ed Shapiro]

Well- I am not one to back down too easily, take abuse or have my rights compromised. I believe in freedom of movement, self expression, the press and all of the inalienable rights guaranteed to us in the American Bill of Rights and Constitution and the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms as it is embedded in the Canadian Constitution. The reality is, however, that those rights do not follow Canadians and Americans when the leave their respective countries. Similar issues, I am sure, exist in the U.K. and many democratic states.

There are also issues of private property and some of the draconian policies that have been enacted by governments since 911. We have to live with theses things and realize that this, as horrifying as it seems, is a time of war.

As I have alluded to in my previous post is that all the confrontation and resulting adversary relationships that can result from excessively caviler attitudes are a total waste of time- time that would be better spent bringing in work, serving clients and even taking in some R and R. .

I am also a firm believer in the old adage that "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure". I would prefer to walk tall with the authority and permission needed to get my job done than to risk delays, problems and sometimes dire consequences that result from confrontations, lawsuits and other hardships and ramifications that come from poor planing, disregard for laws or other misapprehensions that photographers pack in their camera cases along with their gear.

Ed

[gryphonslair99]

Originally Posted by Catmechanic

Here in the US a person can be arrested and fined for taking pictures at a Veterans Hospital and/or other government owned "public" places. The company I work for was hired to lift a semi trailer, which is a mobile MRI unit, into place at a local VA hospital. One lady who works for the MRI company wanted some photos of their $3,000,000 piece of equipment hanging on the crane hook(same crane as in my avatar) as they don't often need to be lifted into place. The VA police (yes,they have their own police force) proceeded to arrest her and issued her a fine (I think it was $175 or so) for taking pictures at a government facility.

I fail to see what national secrets could be revealed by some photos in this situation. Maybe they're afraid someone might see the shoddy treatment they give our military veterans to whom medical treatment was promised.

Sorry for the rant on vet's care in our country! Just wanted to give you an example of how someone taking a few pics can get treated. The last time we lifted this machine the VA sent their staff photographers out to take pictures. I have a copy of the cd, not exactly the quality I'd expect from someone who's job is taking photos, mostly just snapshots and not very good ones at that.

Jim S

First off I am very much for people defending their rights. The problem I have found is that a large majority don't really understand their rights and all that goes with them. A lot of confusion comes from this alone.

A Veterans hospital, although owned and operated by the military for the care of military personnel, both past and present, is not a public place. Nor is it Public Property. The fact that something is owned by a city, county, state or the federal government does not make it public property or a public place.

There are vast amounts of property owned by governments that are not public property. Military complexes, Nuclear facilities, various government buildings, jails, prisons, etc.

To be in a public place it must be on public property. Property that is open for the use, whether for a fee or not, by all persons. A veterans hospital is not public property regardless of how foolish a rule may be. A private citizen has the same right to make up foolish rules about their property as well. Would you argue that it is your right to take photos where ever you choose and in doing so give up your right to restrict the very same thing on your property?

The old saying, It is better to ask forgiveness than to ask permission really doesn't apply here. My guess is that if permission had been asked, it would not have been a big deal. If it had been denied, while it may seem foolish to you, it is an upholding of the rights of those that administer that property. If you are not willing to defend the rights of others, like them or not, then you can not expect your rights to be upheld for they are one in the same.

[generic]

It's my understanding that I am allowed to take photos of whatever is 'viewable' FROM a public place UNLESS some legally performed restriction is made known to me with some restrictions as to expected privacy of subjects etc.

Government (in the US) does not have rights. Government shall have NO 'power' not given it by the people. It's stated pretty clearly. Rights are not something the government has. I resent it every time I hear a police chief or any government official making some announcemen alluding to the rights they have in relation to an action that some people disagree with. Those individuals have personal rights but no rights are passed to them based on being members of government.

Some of them really need a refresher course in government admin.

My opinion only. If I'm wrong then gently explain it to me and I'll straighten up my act

[gryphonslair99]

Originally Posted by generic

It's my understanding that I am allowed to take photos of whatever is 'viewable' FROM a public place UNLESS some legally performed restriction is made known to me with some restrictions as to expected privacy of subjects etc.

Government (in the US) does not have rights. Government shall have NO 'power' not given it by the people. It's stated pretty clearly. Rights are not something the government has. I resent it every time I hear a police chief or any government official making some announcemen alluding to the rights they have in relation to an action that some people disagree with. Those individuals have personal rights but no rights are passed to them based on being members of government.

Some of them really need a refresher course in government admin.

My opinion only. If I'm wrong then gently explain it to me and I'll straighten up my act

Even better, some need to re-read or even possibly read for the first time this entire document.
The United States Constitution - The U.S. Constitution Online - USConstitution.net
And then do some research here in constitutional law to garner a true understand of the document.
FindLaw: Cases and Codes: U.S. Constitution

The powers of the government are provided for in the very constitution that everyone invokes for individual rights. It has long been established that it is every citizens OBLIGATION to understand their rights and the rights of others. A common form of explanation of this is the tried and true saying directly from the courts, "Ignorance of the law is no excuse."

But then most people believe that we live in a democracy. We Don't. This is a Republic. So the next time some government official alludes to the right of the government, remember that those rights are granted to the three individual branches of the government by the constitution.

[generic]

Originally Posted by gryphonslair99

So the next time some government official alludes to the right of the government, remember that those rights are granted to the three individual branches of the government by the constitution.

This is a perfect example. I'm guessing you meant 'powers' rather than 'rights'. The gov does not have 'rights'. The whole point is that the we hold the government responsible to use legitimate power for the common good.
It's one of those seemingly small things that slips away from a populace when they become complacent. If we were all acutely aware that government has power because we choose to have a central authority to prevent a condition of anarchy, and not because they are good and we are evil. The government has 'powers' but is obligated to justify the use of them.

Dont wanna make this thread some kind of political thingy so I'll just drop it now. Thanks for puttin up with me.

I have my d300 to play with.

gene

[TrooperUK]

Newsh Flash!

Since when did trying to have your photograph taken constitute a threat to national security?

Current TV on photo bans in UK - Boing Boing