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Old 04-29-2012   #41
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Default Re: Jpeg or RAW?

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Originally Posted by korman View Post
It makes a big difference whether you waste 20 minutes because you feel like procrastinating (like I do at the moment answering here) or if those 20 minutes are drudgery to make a long working day even longer. If there's no benefit - and that's the crucial point here, raw have in lots of situations no benefits - all the additional work is wasted.
Wasting 20 minutes on drudgery, when that need not be the case, is unrelated to the photography and directly related to computer networking.

Try these numbers on for size, and compare them with your workflow.

The amount of my time used up engaged in downloading 1000 images from camera to computer: 12 seconds.

When I pull into my parking place, after I turn off the engine, I pick up the camera, turn it on, press the "menu" button, move to the "Setup Menu", move to the "Network" menu, move to the "Network connection" menu, and select "On".

That's it. I take the camera inside, and attend to other business while the images are downloaded via WIFI, automatically placed in a newly created appropriate directory and a backup copy sent to a different computer. By the time I can be ready to work on the images there is a JPEG image available for preview (either generated by a RAW converter, or if I've shot in RAW+JPEG the existing JPEG will have automatically been rotated if necessary for previewing).

The time previewing of course varies. Custom software written to suit the particular needs makes it relatively fast. Often it is much like the newspaper editors described by others, and the 15 to 20 best shots are selected. Sometimes however the job is different and only 5 to 10 out of 100 are culled, and several hundreds of shots require processing.

Regardless, the previewing mechanism is a two tiered system. After the initial culls are finished an interactive raw converter is invoked to generate a configuration for each image. Commonly when doing hundreds of images many can use identical configurations and it takes literally one key press to accomplish per image. It immediately moves on to the next image with no delay because no actual conversion takes place. The main point is not wasting time waiting while the computer converts each RAW file individually. Writing a config file is instantaneous while generating and saving a TIFF file takes time.

When the configuration files for all images are done, another bit of custom software batch processes all RAW conversions. This software invokes a RAW converter once per CPU (I use two different 4 CPU machines, and can basically process 8 RAW files at once). There is no need to watch it work, I can do something useful...

Many photographers can't process 100 JPEG's with as little operator time as I put into 1000 RAW files...

Quote:
Sure, use raws if you benefit from the additional possibilities like many do. But don't make it a matter of religious faith and use jpg when they're more appropriate.
So when are you going to demonstrate even one scenario where shooting JPEG actually is more appropriate? (It isn't that hard to do, but you haven't.)
Quote:
And just a small matter on the side, with some of the newer cameras even experienced people are sometimes hard pressed to produce with the raw converter jpg of the same quality as the internal engine in the camera. We aren't even talking about better results, just the same. For example Olympus and Fuji put lot of efforts into optimising their out of camera jpg conversion.
In fact though "experienced people" have absolutely no problem using an external raw converter to duplicate exactly what the camera does, and almost invariably getting better results on the vast majority of all images. That is not open to question, the fact is that guessing at what will be the right parameters before the exposure cannot possibly be as effective as making a judgment call after looking at the data captured.
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That was it for now from me, I need to get back to process the images from the last session to keep my part of the TfP.

Korman
Do those with the most efficient workflow tend to have the most available time...
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Old 04-29-2012   #42
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Default Re: Jpeg or RAW?

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Originally Posted by Rain Lily View Post
To the OP -
When I travel, I usually take tons of pictures and will only seriously process a small percentage of them. I dislike doing the raw to jpeg conversion on images that I know will not be printed bigger than a 4x6, if at all. So I shoot mostly in jpeg, and when I see something I know I will want to process well and print big, I switch to raw for that.
That works only as long as you actually can always determine at the time which images will be printed big later.

I have no idea how that can be done! I am often asked for prints of images shot years ago. I never know what any one given image will end up being used for at some point down the road. Some odd examples, finding an image that can be printed as large as possible for a funeral. Another one that went in the opposed direction was to find 50 images of Snowy Owls suitable for 2"x2" on cheap paper, which meant that many (of the literally thousands of Snowy Owl pictures I have) images that I had hesitated to even save because they were of such poor quality ended up being used.

I want to save for the best possible future use. And I have no clue today what that will be in a year or two for any given exposure.
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Old 04-29-2012   #43
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Default Re: Jpeg or RAW?

I feel shoot what works for you and your work. There is no right or wrong.

I really like RAW for post production options mainly. And my wedding event, no matter how good you are things move fast and lighting will change in a second. More room to fix errors as I said before in this thread. You cannot get perfect settings adjusted at times when things are moving so fast.. I dont give a crap how "experienced" you are, it happens.

I use Lighroom, loads my RAWs and saves the back up. I start going through/post producing images as they are still downloading.. Or I just catch up on emails and such while downloading.. When Im done rating/post producing I just select all and save to JPEG. I still go through all images so for me it doesnt take anymore time becasue they were RAW as I still have to save the rated/post produced images. I can have a whole wedding processed shooting RAW and saved within a few hours ready to put on a print disc with Lightroom. Specially with the batch processing option. I save a TIFF if I want to bring it into PS for extra retouching such as skin clean up..

Setting up a slide show at the reception I just have an assistant handle while I work to save time and get the pictures done for viewing. I feel lighroom works well and efficiently for this.

Only takes a bit more time to download in RAW IMO.. I always have something to do so I feel no time is wasted for me.

This is what works for me personally. I do weddings and portraits.
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Old 04-29-2012   #44
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Default Re: Jpeg or RAW?

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Originally Posted by apaflo View Post
So when are you going to demonstrate even one scenario where shooting JPEG actually is more appropriate? (It isn't that hard to do, but you haven't.)
One case is an acquaintance making a good part of his living from sports photography. Not the glamorous part, more the kind covering 3 games in one evening. His bottleneck is the upload speed via mobile networks. He spends minimal time during or after the game to flag the 5 or so images to be sent out and transfers them, often even during the game. If the game wasn't of crucial importance, as most aren't, he's out with the referee's final whistle, sometimes even earlier if he feels he has enough material to cover the game. By the way, he uses a rather small notebook / big netbook (not sure which it is) for his work in the field, he prefers to spend the money saved on his rent and insurance than a mobile high power workstation able to process raws at the speeds you describe while running on battery for a whole evening. And as other people have written earlier, most pictures never see the next evening, they get deleted before heading out the next day. For his other work he uses raw files, but for the sport coverage, it's just inefficient - his words, not mine.

If you want cases more from the professional side, go back and read the various links posted earlier about professionals not using raw. If it works for them to make good money, who are you to tell them they don't know their business? Don't you think they evaluated the benefits of using raw and made an informed decision, which just doesn't seem to fit into your view of the world?

Oh, and what was all the moaning about raw-files from the D800 being so big? A mirage?

Korman
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Old 04-29-2012   #45
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Default Re: Jpeg or RAW?

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Originally Posted by korman View Post
One case is an acquaintance making a good part of his living from sports photography. Not the glamorous part, more the kind covering 3 games in one evening. His bottleneck is the upload speed via mobile networks. He spends minimal time during or after the game to flag the 5 or so images to be sent out and transfers them, often even during the game. If the game wasn't of crucial importance, as most aren't, he's out with the referee's final whistle, sometimes even earlier if he feels he has enough material to cover the game. By the way, he uses a rather small notebook / big netbook (not sure which it is) for his work in the field, he prefers to spend the money saved on his rent and insurance than a mobile high power workstation able to process raws at the speeds you describe while running on battery for a whole evening. And as other people have written earlier, most pictures never see the next evening, they get deleted before heading out the next day. For his other work he uses raw files, but for the sport coverage, it's just inefficient - his words, not mine.

If you want cases more from the professional side, go back and read the various links posted earlier about professionals not using raw. If it works for them to make good money, who are you to tell them they don't know their business? Don't you think they evaluated the benefits of using raw and made an informed decision, which just doesn't seem to fit into your view of the world?

Oh, and what was all the moaning about raw-files from the D800 being so big? A mirage?

Korman
Now we use an acquaintance of yours. So you don't have any experience, in this area and you're just adlibbing? Something smells like fiction to me!
 
Old 04-29-2012   #46
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Default Re: Jpeg or RAW?

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Originally Posted by Rain Lily View Post
To the OP -
When I travel, I usually take tons of pictures and will only seriously process a small percentage of them. I dislike doing the raw to jpeg conversion on images that I know will not be printed bigger than a 4x6, if at all. So I shoot mostly in jpeg, and when I see something I know I will want to process well and print big, I switch to raw for that.
I am with you on this point Sis. Of course, I am an amateur, at best a low performance hobbyist. Nature photography is my hobby and when I go out for that I use raw and post-process each image individually. But when I go on holiday I use jpeg. I don't select the holiday location, that power I had to relinquish some 40 years ago on a special night - the night which some of you specialise to record but it is rarely a nature hotspot. During 2-3 weeks holiday I often take 3-400 pictures. I know very well that I shall have no time to critically process them all. I am in a full time job and family and social demands do not leave me with much spare time. On my return I quickly select which pictures I am going keep, usually about half of those that I have taken, and twick them minimally. Very rarely I print a picture larger than 4x6" from any holiday trip. I may send some pictures to family members and friends, either electronically or 4x6" prints, if they were on the same trip or planning to visit the same place.

So for me, raw and jpeg both have specific time and reason to use.
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Old 04-29-2012   #47
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Default Re: Jpeg or RAW?

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That works only as long as you actually can always determine at the time which images will be printed big later.

I have no idea how that can be done! I am often asked for prints of images shot years ago. I never know what any one given image will end up being used for at some point down the road. Some odd examples, finding an image that can be printed as large as possible for a funeral. Another one that went in the opposed direction was to find 50 images of Snowy Owls suitable for 2"x2" on cheap paper, which meant that many (of the literally thousands of Snowy Owl pictures I have) images that I had hesitated to even save because they were of such poor quality ended up being used.

I want to save for the best possible future use. And I have no clue today what that will be in a year or two for any given exposure.
Well I might be misunderstanding the whole purpose of the OP's original post? I thought this was a pleasure trip, not a business one that people would be purchasing images from the OP. In the case that I would be offering images for sale, of course I would shoot raw.

But for MY OWN use, I know when I see a sight during travels whether I want to print it or not. I also have planned my trip accordingly. When I went to NYC last year, I already knew I wanted particular images to print for my house. Made sure I shot raw. If I even THOUGHT I might want it, I shot raw. But am I going to print pictures of street scenes, upward-shot angles of the sides of buildings, the bagel that I just bought, or the bird in the park as big prints? No, and I already know I don't want to spend much time processing them.

And it only takes a couple of seconds to change from jpeg to raw.
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Old 04-29-2012   #48
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Default Re: Jpeg or RAW?

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I have no idea how that can be done!
If you look at everything as a sale, it can't. But if you go on a trip to enjoy the trip, love the scenery, and just have some shots for a slideshow or to print for a memory album, then it works very well. I don't have thousands of minutes to process raw -> jpeg of images like the pizza guys that served us, the random subway shots, the buildings. Don't even want to consider doing that.

But...just in case I DO want some bigger prints later - my jpeg is always set to large and best quality. Plenty of data to work with.
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Old 04-29-2012   #49
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I am with you on this point Sis. Of course, I am an amateur, at best a low performance hobbyist. Nature photography is my hobby and when I go out for that I use raw and post-process each image individually. But when I go on holiday I use jpeg. I don't select the holiday location, that power I had to relinquish some 40 years ago on a special night - the night which some of you specialise to record but it is rarely a nature hotspot. During 2-3 weeks holiday I often take 3-400 pictures. I know very well that I shall have no time to critically process them all. I am in a full time job and family and social demands do not leave me with much spare time. On my return I quickly select which pictures I am going keep, usually about half of those that I have taken, and twick them minimally. Very rarely I print a picture larger than 4x6" from any holiday trip. I may send some pictures to family members and friends, either electronically or 4x6" prints, if they were on the same trip or planning to visit the same place.

So for me, raw and jpeg both have specific time and reason to use.
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Old 04-29-2012   #50
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Now we use an acquaintance of yours. So you don't have any experience, in this area and you're just adlibbing? Something smells like fiction to me!
If you want to contact him, I'll send you his coordinates. But please do so during day-time here in Europe.

Korman


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