What a dummy I am...giving model "approval" rights..Rant,...a long one..

[JohnPaul]

Over the weekend, I worked with a lovely model, who has been in a few minor publications, and done some bikini modeling mostly,...

She joined OPM recently in my area, and it's not like we find models who look like her on OPM around here, so I thought I'd send her a little "hello" letter, and asked what her compensation was, since she listed "commercial only"..

Her OPM site looked as though she needed some pictures, IMO the best ones, didn't really flatter her all that much, and it appeared that she was comfortable with nudity, having several implied shots, plus a sheer t-shirt shot as well..

She replied saying that she would be delighted to work with me, and that she normally charges $100.00 for a 4-5 hour shoot,..(massively low)...and if the images are looking good, that could be extended.

I go ahead and book her, and I book an assistant,...and a MUA,...(the MUA canceled within a week of the shoot and I couldn't find a replacement)..and set up my studio for four hours, and got permission to use a certain location for the final set shoot.. I figured that I'd finally submit a bunch of work to a number of places, like "Maxim" type mags..and to a business client who is interested in putting together a girls & guns calendar thingy for a client of his..

Well,.....she arrives, along with her husband.. (she made no mention of this prior to the shoot, but said that she would be coming with her girlfriend.. (I don't like having boyfriends, or husbands there... it just doesn't mix well.......I learned that he was more than just her husband, but her "manager" as well,....& a beginner photographer on top of that..(first red flags))..

They pull out this contract / release, that gives her permission to approve of all images used. (second set of red flags)..

It was presented to me like,....either you sign this, or we are leaving. This was after I had set up, and prepared for the shoot, including ironing outfits, setting up lights, cranking up the heat in the studio, I have an assistant in route, and I have booked this model, not any other model, for the first time in three months because I have been too darn busy to shootthese days, and I don't know when I'll be able to do a shoot like this again.....In addition, I wanted her to trust me, so we could get some great stuff,....so I signed it..

That will be the very last time I will ever do that again..

This is what happened... We shoot,....as we are shooting, the pics are looking hotter than ever!! We are getting some great stuff!! She is all excited about the images,......however, we only shot for 4 hours, because she made plans to do something afterwards, so, we didn't go to the location in the end... oh well... we are talking about shooting again real soon..

I take everyone out to eat at the classy Mexican restaurant across the street, and drop 70 bucks on that.. in addition to paying her $100.00 fee, which she acknowledged on MY release form.

While we were dining, I brought along my camera, and we viewed the images, while waiting for our food, and after eating, and then we went back to my studio,....by this time, the proofs CD was ready, and I burned her a CD of the proofs, sized to 12 level jpgs, at 450 pixels high of every single image, including the lighting tests..etc..


Next day, I wake up and I go over the images, and I edit several that I liked..and sent them her way.

She liked one of them.

She later sends me a zip file of the 40 images she wants me to edit.. I normally would do between 10-20 for a shoot like this tops, but she believes that we shot 915 images because of the file number on the last image... but doesn't take notice that we only shotfewer than 700 images because the image counter on the 5D is continuous, and began somewhere in the 200's..

Of those images she sent me, was an image that was all black. I replied,...not in the most professional way, by asking "WTF are you sure of that file number..?". She selected a flash misfire, and liked the very very faint image of her that was exposed at 1/125ths at f8 100iso by my modeling lamps.. Yep, she claimed that she could clearly see it. (another red flag)... I thought she was nuts..

Then, we get into an argument over the number of images she wants edited..and ......she just can't select any fewer on her end. Heck, there were several that I liked that I personally thought were much stronger images, but those are the ones she wanted.. Ok... what ever. I sent one that I liked, edited, that was IMPO, a very strong image of her, looking very classy, and she replied with....basically telling me that the image doesn't do anything for her and there were better ones than that one......(that was a big fat red flag!)..

Now they want a copy of the high res edited files from me.....previously never mentioned by them, but mentioned by me that I don't release those to just anybody because of previous bad experiences, besides, I paid her, right..? I explained this to her before the shoot, and at the restaurant, and again on the phone with her husband, ..(I'll get to that in a sec)..and then they compare me to every other photographer they've worked with, and claimed that all of them have given her the original raw files, and gave her permission to approve of which ones can be used.. (hmmm....things are changing ever so slightly now......another red flag)... I see on her official modeling site, that she has worked with IMO, a number of beginner type photographers....and the images were'nt IMO, professionally edited.. She displays two photos that are edited using "glowing edges",...a fun little special effect in photoshop that gets old after someone has done it once.. ...well,....on her professional portfolio, she has two of those, along with a bunch of poorly composed, IMO, unflattering looking images, that don't exactly tell me that she has a lot of experience..

Then, she quotes something that a professional bikini model friend of her's supposedly told her,....her friend's name has been around the web for some time,.. Anyways, she claims that she shoves an approval in the faces of Hawaiian Tropic photographers, gets paid for her rate, and gets all raw files, to choose from, plus the high res tiffs, plus web sized images, and if this "little Wisconsin photographer" doesn't give you all that, she would never do business with me.. I have serious doubts about that, after personally knowing several HT models.. My understanding is that they get paid,...and they may not see anything else..but they get paid,...and it's not $20-25 bucks an hour either,...more like 1,200/day..

So, I "edited" the "black" image, & sized it to 9x12, and send it to her,.... and instead of signing it with my name on it, I signed it .."This is a fucking joke..." That didn't go over too well with her husband, who called me up, screaming at me, noting how unprofessional and tacky that looked, ......which I don't really disagree on,...but I mentioned that it was more tung and cheek...meant as a "ha ha this is silly".. (I hope I never have to hear from him again..).. Then I reminded them that I paid her her "rate"... His reply to that was,..."one hundred bucks doesn't mean shit. I wipe my ass with a hundred bucks all the time"... I mentioned that if he uses 100 dollar toilet paper, that he ought to have his wife bump up her modeling rate a bit.. Oh,...and he claims that she never compared me to other photographers, because HE wrote the replies himself, in HER name!!

Then his wife/ the model calls me, to tell me how unprofessional I am being, and that I don't have any real experience shooting real models....and that it's customary for them (apparently, professional models) to hold photographers hostage..(my words, not exactly their's,..but basically that was what I got from it)..

Ok.... I agree to be civil,...and they began telling me that their friend bikini pro model sends in "1600mega pixel images to magazines for photo submitions".. Hmm...that doesn't sound right to me.... Then they later said that they meant 1600 pixels high by what ever wide.. Oh,... so,.. while on the phone, I sized an image to 1600 pixels high... this "high res image" of their's was smaller than a 4x6" print at 300ppi resolution.... then they said that they meant "16,000 pixels high".. Oh sure,....I'm sure every model e-mails nearly 500mg files to magazines and agencies for submissions all the time... LMAO!!

Oh brother,....well, I decided to edit all 40 selected images, to keep the peace, and then I spent the next 12hours, removing every single freckle, every single line..and other junk...(at her request in order for her to approve them)..and the normal stuff I do,......and I send them to her in the e-mail 5 at a time... They are all sized to 12" high,...normally either 8x12, or 9x12 at 72ppi, ....and they now send me an e-mail, stating that while I was on the phone with them, "I said I would give them the high res files", which I did not, nor would I ever do that, but agreed to putting the edited images for the WWW on a CD to have all in one place for submissions... (I guess they are too poor to burn their own CD..?) Now they are talking DVD with high res images.... and then they sent me a list of "approved images".. They selected 20 of the 41 images..(they added one more later on).. & that is apparently final. There will be no more images approved. Even if I really liked something, they won't approve it... Oh, and the ones that they approved of, they have more restrictions, and further approvals,........lets say I want to print one of those images on my comp cards...or in a self promo flier....or a display in my studio, I have to get her permission to do so, & if she says "no", I am out of luck..


However, she apparently believes that she can do what ever she wants with them.

She told me that she needs that high res images for a magazine submission, and that they only accept high res files.. I asked her which magazine is it that.... her reply was to belittle me... bla bla bla.....you aren't such a professional photographer if you didn't know that.... bla bla bla... and never answered me... Then I asked again, and informed her that I have had models contact me many times for contest submission photos..etc.. Then she claimed that Maxim wanted a high res file from her... I then copied and pasted their on line rules for the previous contest submissions,...and they said that the model is allowed up to 3 images, e-mailed to them, of no larger than 3 mgs each.. High res..? LOL!! <y web sized images are just fine for that...

Oh,.....today,.....I learned that they are selling prints and other crap from their website, and she is even asking for "donations" to help out her modeling "career".. The biggest red flag of them all pops up!!!! This red flag is so big, in order to transport it., it must be trucked on an over sized load flatbed, with mini red flags all around it!!

**** her!

The images......I don't even want to look at them on my monitor any longer......I'm so sick, and mad at her, and at myself for being a "nice guy"... I just got ****** up my *** by them!!

Never again.

In her original reply to me after I contacted her asking to discuss compensation, and her giving me her rates, she said that she just wanted a copy of all the images taken, and was happy with the proofs idea, and she claimed that she just wanted them for her records. ....My how things change...

JP

[Jon]

Not to rub it in, cause the sit *sucks*, but were you *really* surprised at this MOP "model" and her boyfriend's behaviour?

We all need a reality check experience like this from time to time.

Look at the bright side - even with the time wasted, at least it only actively cost you $170.

[Bonner]

J.P. You seem to have some internal force that draws trouble your way. Then things seem to go from bad to worse with your choices of words in dealing with people.

This story is a good lesson for everyone to read and I will continue to meet with prospective models prior to the shoot. I like to give them a copy of the model release and encourage them to talk about their expectations.

Jim

[Jim Sykes]

Well, the first thing to ask is what EXACTLY did you sign?

What did it say, and beyond anything written there, you are not obligated to anything else.

At this point any amicable relationship is out the door, so supply exactly what you agreed to supply in the written contract and nothing more and call it a day.

[WayneM]

unless the suppled modeling release which you signed included a copyright release You and not the model and certainly not her boyfriend owns the images. Serve her with a restraining order (to cease and desist welling your intellectual property), file the appropriate paper to register your copyright with the PTO (this allows you to better defend yourself and sets higher limits on damages then notify the agency and wright it off, or prosecute it once the copyright is filed if they object.

WayneM

Vengeance can be had, but it is seldom worth the cost

[Gbee]

Exactly what happened?

I've gotten totally caught up in the story, the imagery the scene setting that I've missed the ending.

Was she selling YOUR pictures for $25 or something like that?

Had that myself too, was an agency photographer for a few years, the girls could purchase from me or have “private” shoots, but I never got a penny ~ the “boy friend” always had something to say, usually with the word slutty thrown in somewhere, but like you, the images would and did appear in magazines, newspapers etc.

Whilst I very soon stopped doing anything with the agency girls, outside the agency work, one [unpaid for] picture actually supplanted a released agency picture in an article on the agency itself, the boss said it was not the image we wanted representing her company. Even though I had not sent it in or supplied copies, my proof sheet had been copied [by the model] and a trust was broken [between me and the agency boss] ~ I lost that job.

Hate women ever since .....
well not really, this just sounds like a nice ending, I’ll take artistic licence with it, OK? :

[JohnPaul]

Originally Posted by Jim Sykes

Well, the first thing to ask is what EXACTLY did you sign?

What did it say, and beyond anything written there, you are not obligated to anything else.

At this point any amicable relationship is out the door, so supply exactly what you agreed to supply in the written contract and nothing more and call it a day.

Yep,....this is what I signed.... I just blocked out the important stuff..(for obvious reasons)..

BTW Jim,....were you the guy I bought a used 1DMk2 body from..?

JP

[JohnPaul]

Originally Posted by WayneM

unless the suppled modeling release which you signed included a copyright release You and not the model and certainly not her boyfriend owns the images. Serve her with a restraining order (to cease and desist welling your intellectual property), file the appropriate paper to register your copyright with the PTO (this allows you to better defend yourself and sets higher limits on damages then notify the agency and wright it off, or prosecute it once the copyright is filed if they object.

WayneM

Vengeance can be had, but it is seldom worth the cost

Thank you Wayne,... I'm considering my legal moves right now.... it just costs a lot to go after something I really don't want to use at the moment.. If they use them without my permission,....say like sending them to publications and falsely filling out the photographer's documents,...then by all means,...or if they begin selling prints,....sure.... but she isn't getting the high res images from me, so the prints will look bad..... but then again,.... do I want to have someone seloing, or showing poorly printed pictures with my name on them..? I guess I will just wait and see,...but yes,... they are going to the LOC tomorrow for registration..

JP

JP

[JohnPaul]

Originally Posted by Gbee

Exactly what happened?

I've gotten totally caught up in the story, the imagery the scene setting that I've missed the ending.

Was she selling YOUR pictures for $25 or something like that?

Had that myself too, was an agency photographer for a few years, the girls could purchase from me or have “private” shoots, but I never got a penny ~ the “boy friend” always had something to say, usually with the word slutty thrown in somewhere, but like you, the images would and did appear in magazines, newspapers etc.

Whilst I very soon stopped doing anything with the agency girls, outside the agency work, one [unpaid for] picture actually supplanted a released agency picture in an article on the agency itself, the boss said it was not the image we wanted representing her company. Even though I had not sent it in or supplied copies, my proof sheet had been copied [by the model] and a trust was broken [between me and the agency boss] ~ I lost that job.

Hate women ever since .....
well not really, this just sounds like a nice ending, I’ll take artistic licence with it, OK? :

Nope,...she isn't selling my images to the best of my knowledge,...but I suspect that could be their motive for demanding the high res images...after viewing her store on her website,...in addition to seeing her little..."please donate money to my modeling career".. message on her site... that just looks so unprofessional IMO, to pan-handle to visitors..

She ought to wear a sign that reads,..."will model for food"..

JP

[JohnPaul]

Originally Posted by Bonner

J.P. You seem to have some internal force that draws trouble your way. Then things seem to go from bad to worse with your choices of words in dealing with people.

This story is a good lesson for everyone to read and I will continue to meet with prospective models prior to the shoot. I like to give them a copy of the model release and encourage them to talk about their expectations.

Jim

No doubt....I'm like a magnet for assholes,...or something...

JP

[JohnPaul]

Originally Posted by Jon

Not to rub it in, cause the sit *sucks*, but were you *really* surprised at this MOP "model" and her boyfriend's behaviour?

We all need a reality check experience like this from time to time.

Look at the bright side - even with the time wasted, at least it only actively cost you $170.

Yes,....Sir,...you are absolutely right!

I deserve it.... I do..... for not sticking to my guns... Had I,....I wouldn't have been writing this..

& thankfully I didn't have to pay more than ....all my time & energy involved, + the 170 bucks.. (so far)



JP

[brian.austin]

My advice: When something doesn't feel right, walk away. Easy to say now, of course, but listen to your gut and be prepared to simply cancel the whole thing.

I've done it with a whole lot more money at stake (non-photography related). If I'm not comfortable with the situation or the way things seem like they might turn out, I'll pack up my stuff and walk away (or fly back across country with a several thousand dollar loss, like I did).

Contracts are a battle of wills to a final compromise. Neither party should completely win and neither party should completely lose. Changing the terms mid-stream is a big, big walk away flag for me.

[Marc Kurth]

Any reason to hide her identity at this point?

Marc

[tsp]

Originally Posted by Marc Kurth

Any reason to hide her identity at this point?

Marc

yeah... what he said..

[Jim Sykes]

JP, if the MKII is working great, then yeah, I'm the guy you bought it from, if it broke the week after you bought it then....no....not me.* *

Right now I see a few things going on here.

First off immediately register the images with the copyright office.* You can register all of them for one fee as a collection.* All the info you need is here.* www.copyright.gov* It will cost like $30 but will protect you in the long run.

Secondly, did you have her sign any model release of yours?* Normally going into a shoot the photographer would have a release they use giving them rights to the models image use, if you dont have anything but hers, here's how I read the situation.

Her release does not specifically have you transferring your copyright to her, so that is a good thing for you.* You still own your copyright, however, it doesnt get a lot better from here on out.

Her release gives you very limited rights to usage of your own photos.* It says you can use the photos for your own promotion, however, it plainly states that SHE has direct approval of what* you can and cant use for that.* "All images used by the photographer for the above instances must be screened and agreed upon by the model before hand."* So, if you dont get something in writing from her each time you want to use a photo, you cant use them for anything.* You would want that in writing as you dont want her to come back in a year and say take them down off your website.* So you are kinda screwed as far as your own usage goes.

Now, as far as what you are contracted to deliver to her, it says that you are supposed to supply her with "A CD of all rough and finished images upon completion or within 1 week of shooting unless otherwise agreed upon."* Looks like you agreed to 30 days so that is the new agreed upon delivery date.* However, as that is written you need to give her absolutely EVERYTHING you shot, no exceptions, she gets it all, not just what you like.* It says rough and finished, so that does not mean that you need to do ANY post processing if you dont want to, but seeing as how you owe her everything, I would do as much as possible to make them all look as good as you can.* But you do owe her ALL original files, as shot...period.* No smaller resolution images, no selected images, no websized images, but everything right out of the camera.* That is what the contract says.* Then you also owe her all images you process if you do any.

That doesnt look good for you JP.* It looks like you do owe her all of them at full resolution.

The next two paragraphs are perfectly acceptable as it keeps you from exploiting her images for porn or other less than desirable things.* Nothing in those paragraphs are really at odds here.

So JP, it doesnt look good for you.* Unless you have your own model release that states anything to the opposite of hers, you are bound by hers and need to agree to delivering what you said you would.* If you have something of your own, then it might be a decision for the courts to decide what has precedent over the other.

But right now, it looks like you need to suck it up and learn.

Now, there is also some good news.* It also doesnt explicitly give her any usage rights at all.* All it says is you owe her the photos on a CD, it doesnt say she can actually use them for ANYTHING and since you still own copyright, that means you have the right to keep her from using any of them for any reason at all, including her own portfolio.* So that is your bargaining chip.

If I were you, I would try to get through to her without her boyfriend butting in.* If that doesnt happen, agree to meet with them and talk in person with him there, but you want to talk with her, not him alone.

Now, before you go, writeup a usage contract on your own for both of you.* One that outlines the usages that both of you can do with the photos.* Have a section that states that you can use a select number of photos for your own portfolio and promotion, have a list of the ones you want to use with filenames listed and put those on the contract so its specific as to which ones you can use.* Or you can try to open it up to all the images you took, she could be ok with that as you are unlikely to use a bad one for your own promotion.*

Also have a section that outlines her rights.* You can leave that blank and negotiate with her the usage terms and write them in before YOU sign those usage rights over to her.* With that, she will have all the photos in full resolution (you owe her that), but now you have a written and signed contract stating what she can do with those full resoltion files.* Dont get greedy here.* Dont give away full usage, but dont get too greedy as if you guys dont reach an agreement everything was for nothing.* So figure out something that she should like and you can live with.

Then you meet, you need to be frank with her and go over the contract just as I did.* Say that with what is written, you are both in a situation where none of these photos will be used.* She can keep you from using any of them for your use and, though you admit you owe her full resolution files of everything, you can keep her from using any of them in any way since there are no usage rights outlined in the contract either.

Then try to reach an agreement for the usages in the contracts above.* Say that since that would be silly to argue to the point that no one can use anything you want to reach an agreement that both you can live with.* Discuss this and have your contract for how YOU can use the photos and how SHE can use the photos ready to go and both of you sign it.* Then there is a clear and specific usages outlined for both of you, there is nothing that she can come back to you for, nothing you can go after her for and you never have to deal with each other again.

If you cant reach usage agreements, then you can just state that as the contract sits then, you dont allow her any usages.* You'll give her the disk with all the images on it, but she cant use it for anything so it is worthless.* You have registered them with the copyright office, so if she uses them for anything you can sue her for infringement.* Dont say it nasty like a threat, just say it as fact so that she understands that she is in just as much of a jam as you are.* She can say you cant use any photos and you both go on your ways having learned a lesson.* With the fact that both of you can keep each other from any uses, it should be fairly easy to reach a usage agreement.

So make the disk.* Suck it up and give her all the images, good and bad, in full resolution and the edited ones she wants.

Write up a contract with sections for both of your allowed usages.

Have two copies, both of you sign them and then go on your ways...lessons learned.

Good luck.

[WayneM]

I agree with Jim, however I would place a copyright watermark on every image before I would give her the CD, You have the right to edit the photos, and a watermark would serve to place any third party on notice that the images were copyrighted. Should the model object to this watermark you then have an indication of her intent.

WayneM

[Jim Sykes]

keep us updated on this JP please.

[weinheimerphoto]

Wow!!! You know, that whole bit about signing a release for the model has happened to me before and I just say no thank you, and if they balk, I show them the door, I don't care how much time I've spent till that point, it's worse than dealing with a wedding. (no I don't shoot weddings) I hate to say it, I've come to a point that I won't take any guff from a model or her manager anymore, it doesn't mean that much to me.

Houses and Ketchup bottles don't give me any grief, ever. Call me Jaded but thats the point I've come to.

[jazzology]

A release granting editorial control is not a release that means anything. I can understand a subject or model wanting the rights to final approval... but then, Real Pros understand this is just not an option. With this kind of "Management" her career will go nowhere... Being a celebrity means putting oneself at the mercy of others abilities. No Photographer gets away with not making people look their best... and conversely, NO ONE gets away with holding the media hostage. In my experience, it's almost always the ones with no experience or established reputation that want to throw their weight around.

It sounds like you have a good handle on the issue... Personally, I would offer to destroy/delete all images from the shoot. or she could just sign a release that actually releases. Probably just chalk it up to a "lesson learned"...

Regards,
Jeff