I've had it with Fundys

[walter23]

Originally Posted by Rain Lily

Wow, that was well written and I think you ROCK for putting it in another post and not editing it up in the first one. Seriously. Thank you.

And it is quite logical. But, what you see as the human mind making connections, I see as the human mind discovering what God has done.

I'm open to interpreting it that way as well, and in fact I have, but because I see it in everything I cannot take the bible as a literal account of anything, but just another human written text - no more or less sacred than a good science fiction book, painting, mind-blowing orchestral musical performance, or piece of pocket lint for that matter (seriously - ever seen a microscope image of a dust mite? I'm sure pocket lint is a little universe of them). It just happens that *everything* in the universe has some kind of divinity written into it by virtue of its existence. (Though what we mean by "divinity" is probably the most important point here, and I suspect my impression of that is very different from yours, as a Christian).

I think there are no coincidences (yes, I love that saying from Signs) and I think it's all mapped out - it's just up to us to see it, if we open up to it. I think every scientific discovery and every mathmatical equation and every bit of "chaos" is all actually well-ordered God stuff.

There are some amazing parallels between this and my own view of the world (or perhaps I'm drawing connections that aren't there and filtering your words through my viewpoints), but there's no way that it can be reconciled with this thing called the Bible. For me. And I would substitute "well ordered God stuff" with "chaotically ordered universe-stuff".

[Rain Lily]

Originally Posted by walter23

I'm open to interpreting it that way as well, and in fact I have, but because I see it in everything I cannot take the bible as a literal account of anything, but just another human written text - no more or less sacred than a good science fiction book, painting, mind-blowing orchestral musical performance, or piece of pocket lint for that matter. It just happens that *everything* in the universe has some kind of divinity written into it by virtue of its existence. (Though what we mean by "divinity" is probably the most important point here, and I suspect my impression of that is very different from yours, as a Christian).

There are some amazing parallels between this and my own view of the world (or perhaps I'm drawing connections that aren't there and filtering your words through my viewpoints), but there's no way that it can be reconciled with this thing called the Bible. For me. And I would substitute "well ordered God stuff" with "chaotically ordered universe-stuff".

We were typing at the same time, so I'll say one more thing... I think we should call this discussion a draw, and move on...what do you say?

[walter23]

Originally Posted by Rain Lily

We were typing at the same time, so I'll say one more thing... I think we should call this discussion a draw, and move on...what do you say?

A draw implies its a contest and I don't really see it that way. I just find it interesting for its own sake. I'm trying to egg you on into showing me how it's possible to believe the bible and take on the christian worldview, because I just can't figure that one out. I'm totally perplexed by it.

[brian.austin]

Originally Posted by walter23

We're talking about ideas here. If you self-identify with your idea so strongly that it has become your entire identity then I can't help offending you when I tell you your idea is ridiculous.

This works the other way around then. YOU can't be offended when someone ridicules your stupid ideas. Because your posts indicate a definite self-identity tied up in your agnosticism leaning toward aethism.

[walter23]

Originally Posted by brian.austin

This works the other way around then. YOU can't be offended when someone ridicules your stupid ideas. Because your posts indicate a definite self-identity tied up in your agnosticism leaning toward aethism.

Yes, that's true.

Whether or not I get personally offended is immaterial to the debate though, and that's my point. It seems a common complaint ("you're offending my religion!"). In some circles (or discussion forums) it's even considered perfectly appropriate to delete any comments that might offend someone's faith.

I've even had people complain over my use of the phrase "god damned" on one occasion. ("You're offending us Christians, man. Better cut it out.")

[Johnny Perkka]

Originally Posted by walter23

So I hope you can understand that by coming at it from this perspective I can't take the bible seriously as a divine text (no more divine than the text on the back of a cereal box, anyway).

yeah, I saw the movie about 23 too (Jim Carey was fantastic playing a neurotic guy, as usual).

But, it is slightly different (allthough I admit the princible in what you wrote is the same).

The 23 theory is obviously more coincidential than the revelations, cause 23 could be basically be any numbers if you have a good imagination, like 69 for example. But try to explain the "coincidences" in revelations better than here: "Revelations" Sure you could make stuff up, even better, but the point is the dude (John) came up with this ages ago... Genius, or a true revelation?

[walter23]

PS: bri-bri, I edited my last post and added a couple of sentences.

[walter23]

Originally Posted by Johnny Heinonen

yeah, I saw the movie about 23 too (Jim Carey was fantastic playing a neurotic guy, as usual).

That movie is just about a guy going insane. It's obviously kind of loosely based on the occult use of 23, and perhaps Robert Anton Wilson's brilliant re-cycling of it as an illustration of how we construct meaning, but I wouldn't say the movie is a very good illustration of what I was talking about.

Originally Posted by Johnny Heinonen

The 23 theory is obviously more coincidential than the revelations, cause 23 could be basically be any numbers if you have a good imagination, like 69 for example. But try to explain the "coincidences" in revelations better than here: "Revelations" Sure you could make stuff up, even better, but the point is the dude (John) came up with this ages ago... Genius, or a true revelation?

I think you may have missed my point. I'm not talking about coincidences, I'm talking about how our minds are constructed to interpret things in terms of our immediate experiences and build meaning. A more banal way of putting it would be to say that we read into the text and find prophecy where there is none. It just happens that Robert A. Wilson's 23 thing is a very good illustration of the mechanism of this, one that can really drive it home to us.

Of course you have to be open minded to it (just as you have to be open minded to scripture to find revelation and meaning in it). Same thing. Open mindedness is, I guess, kind of a "priming" for this meaning-building to work. If you just discount something your mind obviously won't start building connections and you'll find nothing in it, which is why I've never had the experience of believing the bible. I read Wilson, on the other hand, with a completely open mind and his point blasted through me like lightening. It could have happened with the bible had I been raised differently, I guess (and thank god or God that it didn't, because then I'd believe the bible was some unique and special thing).

[Johnny Perkka]

Originally Posted by walter23

That movie is just about a guy going insane. It's obviously kind of loosely based on the occult use of 23, and perhaps Robert Anton Wilson's brilliant re-cycling of it as an illustration of how we construct meaning, but I wouldn't say the movie is a very good illustration of what I was talking about.

I know, just messing with you It's like comparing "Jesus Christ Superstar" and the bible...

Originally Posted by walter23

I think you may have missed my point. I'm not talking about coincidences, I'm talking about how our minds are constructed to interpret things in terms of our immediate experiences and build meaning.

hehe, again, just messing with you. You have to remember I'm not overly christian either, I just like to annoy all participants equally. Especially the ones who take the discussion too seriously...

[walter23]

Originally Posted by Johnny Heinonen

I know, just messing with you It's like comparing "Jesus Christ Superstar" and the bible...


hehe, again, just messing with you. You have to remember I'm not overly christian either, I just like to annoy all participants equally. Especially the ones who take the discussion too seriously...

Oh, I wasn't annoyed, I just thought you were engaging in serious discussion and was responding in kind. My lack of smiley emoticons does not imply a bitter tone

[Johnny Perkka]

Originally Posted by walter23

Oh, I wasn't annoyed, I just thought you were engaging in serious discussion and was responding in kind. My lack of smiley emoticons does not imply a bitter tone

cool.

But SERIOUSLY though, and I'm not joking now...

Imagine dating a girl, a virgin even. You go out together for a year or so, and you take it slow, you don't hop in the sack immediately.

All of a sudden she tells you she is pregnant. Bam! Your like, "what the f... you were supposed to be a virgin"... And she goes, "well d-ah, I guess I was visited by god and now I'm expecting this messiah guy..."

Who in their right mind would fall for a wild explonation like that? Especially when Josef had dark hair and looked mid-easternly anyway and the son has blue eyes and blond hair...

Clearly she was visited by one of the three wise men... The wise man from up north (hense the blond looks of the infant)..

And then this is the basis for a world religion... I don't get it?

[brian.austin]

Originally Posted by walter23

PS: bri-bri, I edited my last post and added a couple of sentences.

Big surprise. And every time I think you're starting to act mature, you show your mental age again.

"bri-bri"? This says more about you than me. I'd ask you to stop sucking your thumb but at least it shuts you up.

[Johnny Perkka]

Originally Posted by brian.austin

"bri-bri"? This says more about you than me. I'd ask you to stop sucking your thumb but at least it shuts you up.

LOL. I didn't realise he was talking about you, I thought he was making a telephone sound... Or maybe he is... man, I got to lay down the whisky for awhile..

[Mechoption]

What a monster long thread that requires my little snippet:

One man hallucinates and he's crazy:
: Joseph Smith, L. Ron. Hubbard, Jesus Christ, Mohammed....
That man convinces a small following he's right and you have a cult:
: Mormonism, Scientology, Christianity, Islam...
The cult convinces more people their 'right' and you have a religion:
: Mormonism, Scientology (only in some countries, still a cult in Germany), Christianity, Islam..

Cult "a religion or sect considered to be false, unorthodox, or extremist, with members often living outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader" (dictionary.com)

Religion "a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion." (dictionary.com)

[walter23]

Originally Posted by Mechoption

What a monster long thread that requires my little snippet:

One man hallucinates and he's crazy:
: Joseph Smith, L. Ron. Hubbard, Jesus Christ, Mohammed....
That man convinces a small following he's right and you have a cult:
: Mormonism, Scientology, Christianity, Islam...
The cult convinces more people their 'right' and you have a religion:
: Mormonism, Scientology (only in some countries, still a cult in Germany), Christianity, Islam..

Cult "a religion or sect considered to be false, unorthodox, or extremist, with members often living outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader" (dictionary.com)

Religion "a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion." (dictionary.com)

Ugh, using dictionary definitions in a debate is bad practice.. though you're right

[littlegal]

Wow, this thead has gone nutso, and that is good. I want people to think about this. But I dont really think they will.
The latest on the homefront: A bride that wants a Christian Photog. That's ok, I guess. She wants to make sure he has a Christian fish on his car, I'm not even kidding. That seems to be the only thing stopping her from booking this really good photog. She grilled him on where he went to church, and how often he went. Too stange. At least to me.

[jfrancho]

Originally Posted by littlegal

Wow, this thead has gone nutso, and that is good. I want people to think about this. But I dont really think they will.
The latest on the homefront: A bride that wants a Christian Photog. That's ok, I guess. She wants to make sure he has a Christian fish on his car, I'm not even kidding. That seems to be the only thing stopping her from booking this really good photog. She grilled him on where he went to church, and how often he went. Too stange. At least to me.

When planning a good wedding, the devil's in the details

[Douglas]

Originally Posted by jfrancho

When planning a good wedding, the devil's in the details

<cue rimshot>

[littlegal]

LOL Jay. I guess it really matters to some people, but I still find it weird. I mean, when I buy my shoes, I don't go online and grill the shoemaker...... Again, it's just so strange to me.

[Douglas]

Originally Posted by littlegal

LOL Jay. I guess it really matters to some people, but I still find it weird. I mean, when I buy my shoes, I don't go online and grill the shoemaker...... Again, it's just so strange to me.

I would. But I cant speak Chinese