I've had it with Fundys

[Rain Lily]

Originally Posted by brian.austin

Dude...this is getting old. Do you realize no one is sitting here waiting to pounce on you with this stuff?

Draft it up in notepad or something and let it sit for a few minutes if you need it. No one cares that much and, in the end, it's not going to make a difference anyway.

You're right, Brian, because it won't make a difference. It's been fun to talk about but Walter isn't convincing me, and I'm not convincing him...

I do wish you the best, Walter, and hope that you find the facts you need...

[walter23]

Originally Posted by Pony

The Bible warns about deceivers and those who seek their own glory.To be totally fair,a person should pick up a Bible and objectively read it.At least they could make a more informed choice.

I've done that. It struck me as anachronistic.

[brian.austin]

Okay, Walter. Once again you edited your posts and changed your supporting statements. I give up with you. Have fun.

[walter23]

Originally Posted by Rain Lily

I do wish you the best, Walter, and hope that you find the facts you need...

.... BEFORE ITS TOO LATE!

[walter23]

Originally Posted by brian.austin

Okay, Walter. Once again you edited your posts and changed your supporting statements. I give up with you. Have fun.

Don't be a jerk - you could have simply posted what I *had* written and argued against that. That's the risk one takes by editing his posts, and I accept that. I most likely just reworded things.

Shrug.

"I give up with you" is the worst debate cliché imaginable. So "I give up with you, too."

[swampler]

I wonder what Cindy is going to think when she sees her little rant turned into 9+ pages of religious debate?

She'll be upset that her trolling post didn't work and won't ever post in this thread again, except possibly to refute this or otherwise to post in order to try to prove me wrong.

[Douglas]

Originally Posted by Pony

Do you think imperfect man is equal to a perfect God? Since Gods word is perfect,it should be trusted above man.Now I ask you personally if you just have an opinion or have you really studied this issue from a biblical standpoint.Of course no one can obligate you to answer.
The sad thing is,there are people calling themselves Christians who really aren't.Some people think just because they have stepped foot into a church,their Christians.Or,just because their "mothers a Baptist",then they must be Christian,too.These kind of people can do real harm.

Douglas response.

But the bible wasnt written by god. It was written by man. And all copies made since then were hand written by man. So at the very best, the bible is man's interpretation of god's word. And I go back to my statement on page 1 where you take a lineup of people and tell 1 person 1 thing and they pass it on. Then you see how its changed by the last person.

Now put this over 2000 years and consider the literacy rates of people through time. I guarentee if you found the first copy of the bible and all its gospels, and then read the current version of them, they would be extremely different. Especially when you consider over time, there have been changes made specifically to reflect the views of those in power. One only has to look at the mundane rule of no meat on friday and how now it is barely observed except by the very devout.

So even if god did write the first bible (even if it was through a man), I would guarentee the current book is nothing more then a paraphrase or 2000+ years of interpretations of the original.

[Rain Lily]

Originally Posted by walter23

.... BEFORE ITS TOO LATE!

ROFL! I honestly didn't think that, Walter!

But you are funny...

[brian.austin]

Originally Posted by walter23

Don't be a jerk - you could have simply posted what I *had* written and argued against that. That's the risk one takes by editing his posts, and I accept that. I most likely just reworded things.

Shrug.

"I give up with you" is the worst debate cliché imaginable. So "I give up with you, too."

Sheesh. You even edited this one!

Whatever. You've already established that you keep changing your tune. Poor debating skills made up with revisions are still poor skills. Form your argument, write your words, and leave it alone. At this point, you're just coming across as a guy who has to go back and say "wait, wait...I REALLY meant to say THIS" every time you get a rebuttal.

Seems odd from a "scientist" who should be used to forming arguments.

[walter23]

Originally Posted by brian.austin

No, you're not. That's my point. You're convincing yourself of your evidence but haven't presented anything that convinces anyone else.

That's a very good point.

I may end up teaching science at some level in my real life; that's where I'll put my money where my mouth is.

Here, there's not much audience for it. I could write a forty page essay on the scientific method and the structure of scientific "knowledge" but everybody would just skim it, so we have to have pretty simplified philosophical arguments.

Even those probably haven't been read by most people here, and probably just skimmed by you. So what's the point of elaborating

[walter23]

Originally Posted by brian.austin

\ You've already established that you keep changing your tune. Poor debating skills made up with revisions are still poor skills. Form your argument, write your words, and leave it alone. At this point, you're just coming across as a guy who has to go back and say "wait, wait...I REALLY meant to say THIS" every time you get a rebuttal.

I wasn't aware anybody had responded at the time I edited things. You're taking some pretty cheap shots here.

I'm not a fast thinking, on my feet, verbal debater. I have to mull over ideas for awhile and reword them a few times before I'm satisfied. I'm a slow methodical writer.

As I've said you could simply respond to my post the first time and leave what I had written in your quotations instead of railing about my tendency to edit things, which strikes me as cheap and ad hominem.

Seems odd from a "scientist" who should be used to forming arguments

There's a reason I'm a scientist and not a politician. I'm accustomed to writing multiple drafts of a paper and reading and re-rereading my arguments to make sure they are what I meant to say.

[Pony]

Originally Posted by Douglas

But the bible wasnt written by god. It was written by man. And all copies made since then were hand written by man. So at the very best, the bible is man's interpretation of god's word. And I go back to my statement on page 1 where you take a lineup of people and tell 1 person 1 thing and they pass it on. Then you see how its changed by the last person.

Now put this over 2000 years and consider the literacy rates of people through time. I guarentee if you found the first copy of the bible and all its gospels, and then read the current version of them, they would be extremely different. Especially when you consider over time, there have been changes made specifically to reflect the views of those in power. One only has to look at the mundane rule of no meat on friday and how now it is barely observed except by the very devout.

So even if god did write the first bible (even if it was through a man), I would guarentee the current book is nothing more then a paraphrase or 2000+ years of interpretations of the original.

The Bible is Gods inspired word given directly to man.So lets go from there.God also created the languages so that his word can be correctly translated so that each language group can know him and his word.

[Douglas]

Originally Posted by swampler

She'll be upset that her trolling post didn't work and won't ever post in this thread again, except possibly to refute this or otherwise to post in order to try to prove me wrong.

Actually despite her original comments (which I kind of agree to a an extent), this has been a very.....reasonable debate that has been going on. The fact it is now 9 pages and still civil is an accomplishment. Ive seen threads made by real hard line right side religious people. I mean "bury the needle right side, scripture is the law, if you dont follow the bible you will go to hell" type of people. And I have yet to see this here. Just people with strong (but not over the top) beliefs.

Im "guessing" the post was made in anger, as you can sense it in some of her replys.

[walter23]

Originally Posted by Pony

The Bible is Gods inspired word given directly to man

That's an assertion that, if it were true, could be essentially proven within a scientific framework (unless "god" was intentionally trying to deceive us). So let's see it.

[brian.austin]

Originally Posted by walter23

I wasn't aware anybody had responded at the time I edited things. You're taking some pretty cheap shots here.

I'm not a fast thinking, on my feet, verbal debater. I have to mull over ideas for awhile and reword them a few times before I'm satisfied. I'm a slow methodical writer.

Then write it, review and revise before hitting Submit.

As I've said you could simply respond to my post the first time and leave what I had written in your quotations instead of railing about my tendency to edit things, which strikes me as cheap and ad hominem.

As opposed to adding supporting statements that change the slant of your points? That has more integrity for you? Seriously?

Look at it this way: if I quote PART of what you say and respond to that, I'm taking it out of context and not addressing what you actually wrote as a whole. So how is that different when you go back and revise your posts AFTER someone has replied to it and a third person goes through and reads it? It looks like I've taken your post out of context when, in fact, you've gone back to revise your statement and I had nothing to do with it.

THAT'S cheap.

[brian.austin]

Originally Posted by walter23

That's an assertion that, if it were true, could be essentially proven within a scientific framework (unless "god" was intentionally trying to deceive us). So let's see it.

Re-read the statement...then prove inspiration.

[walter23]

Originally Posted by brian.austin

As opposed to adding supporting statements that change the slant of your points? That has more integrity for you? Seriously?

For the last time - I reread my post a few times after posting it and edit it on the fly. It's how I write; I can't help it. Nothing dishonest about it. Even if I had read your replies (which I didn't, as far as I know they weren't even posted yet in any case where I've made edits), it would be scarecely different from just replying with my "supporting statements that change the slant of my points".

Anyway, look up the phrase "ad hominem". We're on an unnecessary and "ad hominem" tangent here.

[Douglas]

Originally Posted by Pony

The Bible is Gods inspired word given directly to man.So lets go from there.God also created the languages so that his word can be correctly translated so that each language group can know him and his word.

But I still stand by my prior comments. Doesnt matter about the language, humans by nature will interpret words. And 2000+ years offers lots of interpretations. Not to mention that words can be changed to fit someones agenda.

Lets take even the 5th commandment. Thou shalt not kill. That didnt stop the crusades from happening. Nor did it stop the Spanish Inquisition from happening. Heck, even closer to home, the salem witch trials. Wars, torture and murder all in the name of god. But wait. god said it is wrong to kill. But its ok to kill in his name? I guess that way the sin or blood isnt on your hands as you are doing "his will"?

Man's interpretation.

On a much smaller scale. Lets say you told me you really like cheddar. Someone asks me what you like and I tell them you like cheese. So they go out and get you some swiss, and you hate swiss cheese. I did not lie, but I interpreted your words and the wrong result occurred.

[swampler]

Originally Posted by Douglas

Actually despite her original comments (which I kind of agree to a an extent), this has been a very.....reasonable debate that has been going on. The fact it is now 9 pages and still civil is an accomplishment. Ive seen threads made by real hard line right side religious people. I mean "bury the needle right side, scripture is the law, if you dont follow the bible you will go to hell" type of people. And I have yet to see this here. Just people with strong (but not over the top) beliefs.

Im "guessing" the post was made in anger, as you can sense it in some of her replys.

I agree with what you say here. This is why I stated that her post "didn't work" as I feel she was trying to cause trouble, which so far we've avoided.

[patterfr]

This is like heroin to me and I can't keep away.
I saw this in London in St.Pauls Cathedral-(and guess what that's not even a Catholic cathedral) very famous painting-check it out and read it in the link it explains the thought that God ain't gonna come knocking, you gotta go seek him.
Then I'm gonna run away "like a rabbit!"


Edit: or better yet, he knocks but we gotta recognize the knock and then answer is probably a better way to state it. (Sorry Brian to edit, don't mean to bum you out.)
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