Let us not forget history......

[Tom Swaman]

With all of our current joy, anticipation and satisfaction, let us stay on our toes and exert as much influence/control on Nikon as we possibly can. There is always an outside chance that they may listen this time.

Without detailing the history of Nikon, the company made box cameras and lenses before the middle of the last Century. The photo world scoffed at Nikon as the lens standards originated in Germany, East and West, Switzerland, France and the United States and the general world attitude poo pooed the Japanese glass. By the 60s, the Japanese had come into their own and names like Nikon, Minolta, Yashica, Pentax, Konica, Mamiya, etc. were rising and competing with the likes of Leitz, Exacta, Alpa, Zeiss, Wollensak and many others. Nikon rapidly rose to the top with its large format camera lenses and a couple of fantastic enlarging lenses. Then the Photomic came into market and the Japanese were on their way to eventually dominating the 35mm camera and accessories markets.

As nikon grew through the end of the 50s, the 70s and into the 80s, they made two major errors. They talked rather than listened and they forgot the people who put them on the map. Nikon basically became unresponsive to people in a multitude of different ways.

While Nikon for got people and generally did only as they chose, Bell & Howell, now named Canon began to build good cameras while they treated people well. Once they had a pro-quality camera and several good lenses, Canon began to talk to the pros and to give them free equipment in return for endorsements and other publicity. Perhaps the changeover movement from Nikon domination to Canon domination was catalyzed by the greatest nature photographers receipt of free gear. Not too bad deal for carrying brand "C" and for pronouncing the total neglect of their professional needs by brand "N"!

Finally, Canon beat Nikon to the punch with their IS telephoto and the markets turned topsy-turvy.

Let us not let Nikon forget the stupidity of their actions and the total neglect of us, their customer. Let us keep them aware that we want and need good gear and a systems approach to that gear. Equally important is Nikon's servivice and delivery. They must take care of our needs in a professional manner and in a timely manner. Nikon must listen to us and exchange their production for our well being. If they fail and repeat their cockiness of the 8os, we may find ourselves supporting others with good reasons!!!!!

Just some reflections and hope.....
Tom

[Gbee]

Good story, of course one could read it slightly differently, Canon stabbed Nikon in the heart by making a better camera from a lot of different designs.

Canon had been the tool and die giant, nearly all manufacturers sent their ideas and drafts there for parts assembly, tool configuring and assembly solutions.

Not unlike Mr. Bill Gates who made good software for IBM, later bug fixed it and launched Microsoft, Canon Optical emerged from the old tool and die company with clones of existing cameras. Some were pathetic failures, mostly because of production difficulties but also because bad design was copied into the new products.

But there was also a fundamental difference in attitudes as outlined by the OP. Canon tried very hard, if there was a problem a new assembly or parts were tried out until the problem went away. This often meant new models within months of a previous new launch.

For those who could afford to keep up, it meant better and better gear, for those struggling with the cost, it was frustrating and heart breaking. On the Nikon side one was left with poor or bad product for five years or more, in a competitive commercial world this was advantageous for a while, I enjoyed my switch to Canon immensely, armed with a 16~35mm lens on a 1.3x factor 1D, I out gunned, was able to get closer, shoot faster and have more pixels than my Nikon toting colleagues.

I capitalised on this advantage greatly.

Today I see Canon not quite grasping the philosophy of the potential of the new technology whilst Nikon have brought a more complete package to the table with more integration of their 1st and 2nd series machines making the mixed bag of cameras more viable and mutually supportive than Canon’s offering which just stop short.

Canon are probing ~ they have a carrot they can give us, but like Nikon with the D1s, which they denied was upgradeable at all, they waited until they lost market to give us the goodies we needed last year like already. Drip feeding the technology was a deliberate Nikon strategy which was circumvented by a much faster technology acceleration than the market analysis predicted but Nikon failed to respond, not because she did not have the technology ready to go, it was her arrogance, as outlined beautifully by the OP already.

Now, this time I fear I see this attitude has infested the Canon board of directors too, Canon were not previously know for drip feeding their technology, and Canon has shown they are not restricted by the lack of availability, it’s a boardroom decision.

I am seriously considering my photo equipment in the near future. I don’t have to do anything as my current 1DMKIIns are fine and Canon will need another upgrade, IMO to match Nikon. My question is will I wait, or do I see a technical advantage that I can capitalise on in the meantime?

[Tom Swaman]

Gbee,

Your points are well taken and I am certain that there is much truth. However, you omitted the major fact that Canon gave away gear and Nikon did not. Did you ever take notice of the lines in front of a skiing gear store the day after Thanksgiving, or a Walmart the day after Christmas. I am not in those lines, but many photographers are!!!!!

Let us not sell out. Let us work with and affect Nikon's decisions by input and controlling our willingness to purchase their gear.

Tom

[Gbee]

Canon gave me no free gear.

Nikon gave me no free gear either.

Your point about the queues is going over my head.

Originally Posted by Tom Swaman

Gbee,

Your points are well taken and I am certain that there is much truth. However, you omitted the major fact that Canon gave away gear and Nikon did not. Did you ever take notice of the lines in front of a skiing gear store the day after Thanksgiving, or a Walmart the day after Christmas. I am not in those lines, but many photographers are!!!!!

Let us not sell out. Let us work with and affect Nikon's decisions by input and controlling our willingness to purchase their gear.

Tom

[Mr. Pickles]

I do not see the point of this thread.

[Gbee]

Well you've come to the right place then.

Originally Posted by Mr. Pickles

I do not see the point of this thread.

[jfrancho]

I do not see the point of this thread.

Its a thread about brand loyalty

Let us not let Nikon forget the stupidity of their actions and the total neglect of us, their customer.

[Tom Swaman]

It was intended to be a thread suggesting that with Nikon returning to a position of strength, they need to listen to what their customer's want, request and need and to remain interactive with us and not repeat their arrogant stupidity of the fairly recent past. There are many good reasons, economic considerations among them for a customer to remain with one vendor. Call it loyalty or whatever, it is in large part the vendor's responsibility to create and to maintain that loyalty. Frankly, I never had a gooc reason to go from Nikon to a different brand, but I came close due to Nikon's total disregard for the needs of their customers, beginning with not listening and very slow and poor service.

Tom

[Nikonfreak]

Originally Posted by Tom Swaman

It was intended to be a thread suggesting that with Nikon returning to a position of strength, they need to listen to what their customer's want, request and need and to remain interactive with us and not repeat their arrogant stupidity of the fairly recent past. There are many good reasons, economic considerations among them for a customer to remain with one vendor. Call it loyalty or whatever, it is in large part the vendor's responsibility to create and to maintain that loyalty. Frankly, I never had a gooc reason to go from Nikon to a different brand, but I came close due to Nikon's total disregard for the needs of their customers, beginning with not listening and very slow and poor service.

Tom

Let me jump in here for a second. I believe there was quite a bit of tail wagging the dog.

I'm going to say that it's not necessarily who has the better product that wins. Beta was better than VHS by a longshot, but poor marketing strategy blew it there.

I'd say marketing strategy won quite a bit of market share for Canon in the pro sector. There were leaders that jumped and there were followers that don't really have a rat's tail end clue what they really need in the way of photographic product and there are those with more dollars than sense that will buy what is "Perceived" to be the top product of the day and want the bragging rights.

Don't believe it.... spend some time on some of those other boards and listen to the technophile who absolutely can't live without 35mm frame size for taking pictures of his family on weekends with a D2X and needs to jump to Canon.

How about "What lens to buy?" ... that's a favorite of mine. Not the "Should I get 'x' or 'y' lens but just "What lens to get first?" ... gee.. if you don't know and you are the one taking the pictures...how would I know?

Look, Canon did give away gear to key, high profile photogs and corporations. They discounted some to others deeply. That's the game. It paid off. The marketing programs worked. Other marketing programs were keyed to release minor upgrades as new cameras. Now everyone's on the bandwagon with x and s versions of models. perception seems to be everything.

Nikon's "seemingly" been behind... but if it were really true... then why did the D200 sell so well? The only camera that really dogged out there was the D2hs... Nikon dropped the marketing ball on that one, but truthfully, it should have been a 6 or 8 megapixel camera. Oops.

Other than that, Nikon has had big hits and 'taint really behind at all performance wise. The marketing game has caught up and Nikon is out selling Canon from what I hear.

Interesting times ahead.

Julio

[Tom Swaman]

Julio,

You are very correct. I insert that had Nikon listened more, their marketing strategy would not have fallen short. This happened when the F5 was out. The F5 was one heck of a fantastic camera as was the N8008, the 80-200mm zoom, 300mm f/2.8, 400mm f/4, 400mm f/2.8, 600mmf/4. The original 500mm f/4 was a mediocre telephoto and the 800m f/5.6 was a good lens with moderate usefulness. Nikon had also come out with excellent wide angle lenses. Canon beat Nikon, as you state, in marketing and with their PC lenses, their IS lens and their responsiveness to customers.

I am through. You will not have to read any more about this issue from me. I hope to be able to stay with Nikon and I hope that Nikon stays with me!!!!!

Have a great weekend all,
Tom

[Gbee]

I was like this once, I did not have your patience, Tom, seeya Monday!

Originally Posted by Tom Swaman

I am through. You will not have to read any more about this issue from me. I hope to be able to stay with Nikon and I hope that Nikon stays with me!!!!!Tom

Heres my two cents..
I have read so many of these threads that its getting old .Reminds me of the Chevy /fords wars on the drag strips.
The truth of the matter is Nikon,Cannon are both in a compact DSLR market and the reason we shoot with these brands is because of advertising ,we think that we are getting the latest tech..
We are.. but its still a consumer market sure they both have pro body's designed for sports ,which is needed.
But that leaves the average shooter with trickle down tech that was designed for a specific need,light fast and the largest files possible.

I wish more people would realize this and be happy with what they have and quit fussing about it.

To cap this rant ..Do you really think your camera is the best?
I don't!!
The best costs six times more then the best Cannon and Nikon or Sony etc.
Hasselblad.com

When in a Chevy market don't forget someones got a Porsche when you brag about how fast your car is.


Flame away...

[Gbee]

Actually it's not about Canon V Nikon at all, though it might seem like that at first glance.

It's about Market leaders squandering their riches and abandoning their consumer base as they get increasingly higher profits.

Some time ago I had to choose a camera system, I'd been though Olympus, Pentax, Minolta, Yashica, Fuji and some more, there was only two left and I liked neither of them.

It came down to Canon or Nikon in film bodies, really can't remember which now but I chose the Nikon, best decision I made, the cameras proved worth the extra money, they were reliable and trustworthy, those that had problems, like the F3 could be avoided as other models were almost as good in their areas of expertise.

All that changed with Nikon digital and the best recent decision I made was moving to Canon.

I left Nikon, not because I did not like their cameras any more, I left because they could not make a good one. Nikon received detailed an itemised lists of problems, globally through many NPS members, clubs and organisations, we were stone walled and just plain lied to, every single announcement that Nikon has ever made, regarding their digital development has been reversed, proven to be incorrect or just a lie.

I didn't have to put up with that, but I've taken five Nikon customers with me. The mantra was always the same, Nikon broke, can't get it fixed, no NPS, no shows, service days nothing. Nikon's service and support just disappeared, it had once been the envy of the non-Nikon owner.

They, Nikon had it and blew it, that's heart aching for a loyalist. And yes we do like seeing our products in the front lines, at war zones, sports event, celebrity and fashion shows and in product placement.

I probably stayed with OM a little longer all because James Bond used an OM4-Ti in the opening splash and briefly in one of his movies ... but then again, that just might have been me, no one else would be as silly, would they?

Originally Posted by D.Rodgers

Heres my two cents..
I have read so many of these threads that its getting old .Reminds me of the Chevy /fords wars on the drag strips.
The truth of the matter is Nikon,Cannon .

[Tom Swaman]

Yes, Gbee! Yes! You and I agree to the "T". "Blew it" is a euphemism for what Nikon did!

Tom

[Nikonfreak]

Originally Posted by Tom Swaman

Julio,

You are very correct. I insert that had Nikon listened more, their marketing strategy would not have fallen short. This happened when the F5 was out. The F5 was one heck of a fantastic camera as was the N8008, the 80-200mm zoom, 300mm f/2.8, 400mm f/4, 400mm f/2.8, 600mmf/4. The original 500mm f/4 was a mediocre telephoto and the 800m f/5.6 was a good lens with moderate usefulness. Nikon had also come out with excellent wide angle lenses. Canon beat Nikon, as you state, in marketing and with their PC lenses, their IS lens and their responsiveness to customers.

I am through. You will not have to read any more about this issue from me. I hope to be able to stay with Nikon and I hope that Nikon stays with me!!!!!

Have a great weekend all,
Tom

I'm with you. Nikon is catching up. Canon has and continues to do a great job and what we currently have in our hands, what's coming, and what they cost to obtain is absolutely amazing given prices only a few years ago.

The future promises to be good for shooters of both brands as each company leapfrogs the other with innovations and upgrades with each new model.

Julio

[DigitalPhotography]

Blah Blah Blah.

You can't please everyone. Stop whining and just enjoy what you have. Nikon and Canon are excellent companies making excellent products with excellent customer service.

[Mr. Pickles]

No blah blah blah needed.

I tend to agree with the excellent products note, but there was a huge "bad Nikon customer service" thread on here a long time ago (see below). I assume Nikon has gotten better about that however.

Very disappointed in Nikon