Curious - opinion?

[ellette]

I was talking with my husband the other day. People keep talking about how film is dead. They typically mean 35mm but some even think that medium and large format will be going with it. I was telling my husband that I think what we may see is 35mm go away mostly, but that I bet medium and large format will eventually become more popular as digital gets more and more common.

The reason I'm guessing that may happen is that when people realize they essentially need to upgrade their digital camera on a regular basis since for one, they aren't intended to last forever like many of the old film cameras are. Heck, even my 2000 rebel is doing just fine (well, as fine as it ever has with the kit lens) even though it sat in the really really hot car one day on accident and part of it cracked! I've used the sucker in the rain, crack and all and no problems.

So, I think that people will end up looking at what they pay for their digital cameras every few years and realizing that if they saved up and got one medium format camera or large format camera they wouldn't likely have to upgrade till their kids had used the camera and passed it on to their grandkids, if then. My father-in-law for instance has a camera that was the same kind as the photographers used in the Veitnam war (35mm) and has never even thought about upgrading as there was no reason. I only had to get the 2000 rebel because my old Pentax I had gotten, used, when I was little needed a repair that essentially would have cost the same as getting a new camera would. Really, I wish I had just gone ahead and done it but I was poorer than poor at the time and so I just did without a camera for a few years.

Anyhoo...I think MF and LF will get people who are tired of upgrading cameras that aren't meant to last and keep changing anyway. Whatcha think?

Sara

[Alice Morrison]

The market desperately needs a manufacturer to step forward and offer a body that may be "upgraded" with a new sensor as desired.

[ellette]

Absolutely...I think that would go a long way. If I knew that I could buy a digital camera and keep it till I was too old and frail to hold it anymore and had to go for some little lightweight P&S thing, I'd be that much happier (well, right now it is hard to get any happier at the thought of getting my digital...I am SO done with my film at the moment) with it. Problem is, it would cut down on the cost for the consumer to do that and I don't know that any of the companies out there want to do it. Maybe once the shift to MF & LF happens (if it does) they'll start to do that, but I don't know.

Sara

[DigitalPhotography]

It would seem that most if not all MF manufacturers are or are planning to go digital.* It may be that the last hold out will be LF.

I posted not to long ago a question of whether or not I should sell me MF.* So far I have not sold it.* Last weekend I had a chance to take it out and run a fews rolls through it.* It felt good.* Something about film has always made me pause and really think before clicking the shutter.* It the opposite for me with digital.* As hard as I try, I tend to just click away at times.

[lecter]

although note folks, that the MF guys, to keep costs down(joke) are building integrated (i.e. non upgradeable) backs on their cameras.

Hassy and Mamiya

Scary....

I like my digital back. My H1 should outlast me.. hehe, but the backs won't......

I am a sucker...

[jwind]

No I think MF and LF film are going away too. ( note, I don't mean that they are going to disappear, just professionally somewhat obsolete) \

My reasoning, simple really.

I shoot at a Commercial photography studio with 3-4 shooters (somtimes freelancers), 2 in house editors/ color separators. 10 years ago we shot chromes with Hassies almost all of the time. We upgraded to digital early and it took sometime for our clients to make the change. Today it's almost exclusively digital, havn't shot a roll of film in over a year (and that was a roll if I recall).

Heres why.

-Cheaper for us and cheaper for them (clients) before you argue quality, we now carry a tabloid size print of medium format film and LF digital to all meetings and let clients choose (that's right, no film in over a year)

-We now own a Canon 1ds Mark II and after extensive testing the we discovered the canon produces better images then the hassies... They now sit on a shelf. So essentially the canon has taken over the MF roll (models shooting as well of course) and we shoot apparel and Hard Goods with Digital LF.

[scoundrel1728]

Originally Posted by ellette

I was talking with my husband the other day. People keep talking about how film is dead. They typically mean 35mm but some even think that medium and large format will be going with it. I was telling my husband that I think what we may see is 35mm go away mostly, but that I bet medium and large format will eventually become more popular as digital gets more and more common.

The reason I'm guessing that may happen is that when people realize they essentially need to upgrade their digital camera on a regular basis since for one, they aren't intended to last forever like many of the old film cameras are. [snip]

So, I think that people will end up looking at what they pay for their digital cameras every few years and realizing that if they saved up and got one medium format camera or large format camera they wouldn't likely have to upgrade till their kids had used the camera and passed it on to their grandkids, if then. [snip]

Anyhoo...I think MF and LF will get people who are tired of upgrading cameras that aren't meant to last and keep changing anyway. Whatcha think?

I think that medium and especially large format will stick around for a while at least, but not for the reason you have given. After all, 35 mm hasn't killed off these larger formats yet and the advantages of digital are in many ways similar to 35 mm. Even more so to the point that I think 35 mm is effectively dying. I expect that it will be a long time before it will be possible to process an imager that would have the amount of detail or general image quality in a large format film image at anywhere near a reasonable price. Medium format is iffier but I don't expect 120 film to become extinct for several years at least.

For a 35 mm replacement, we are already pretty much there. Even if the camera body has to be discarded for a new model every few years, the incremental cost of operation for digital is so much less than for 35 mm that the savings in film and processing costs alone will have paid for the new body, at least for heavy users. As digital technology matures, there will be less need to trade in the body as frequently and the cost savings will become even greater and more compelling than they already are.

[Wilt]

>> Even if the camera body has to be discarded for a new model every few years, the incremental cost of operation for digital is so much less than for 35 mm that the savings in film and processing costs alone will have paid for the new body, at least for heavy users. As digital technology matures, there will be less need to trade in the body as frequently and the cost savings will become even greater and more compelling than they already are.<<

We're already there! I calculated that at the prices I was paying for 120 film, 120 processing and 4x5 preview printing at pro lab rates, it would take only 31 weddings, with 300 preview shots per wedding, to fully pay for a $8000 camera (1Ds MkII)! Bring that down to a 20D street price, it doesn't take too many rolls of film to effectively pay for the dSLR for an amateur. So the rapid pace of obsolesence is ameliorated by that -- although it still bothers me that I can own and use 30 year old film equipment and get just as good photos as a new film camera, but the digicam which my wife bought me 4 years ago for Xmas will be looked down upon by kids today as 'only 4 Mpixels?!'.

[dbphotos]

I love mf and lf, but the problem with film is you can't view it immediately and when you're working with a client they want to see it now, especially when it comes to fashion and commercial shots.

In my world Id love to shoot all mf and then drum scan my negatives. I think you get a bigger and better quality image, but its time consuming and cost prohibitive, so I agree with the comments above that the best solution is that the digital manufacturers come up with cameras that are upgradable, i.e. sensonrs, etc. Let's face it that the bodies really haven't changed that much from pro film to pro digital.

Just my .02cents.

[metalstorm]

Originally Posted by ellette

The reason I'm guessing that may happen is that when people realize they essentially need to upgrade their digital camera on a regular basis since for one, they aren't intended to last forever like many of the old film cameras are.* Heck, even my 2000 rebel is doing just fine (well, as fine as it ever has with the kit lens) even though it sat in the really really hot car one day on accident and part of it cracked!* I've used the sucker in the rain, crack and all and no problems. Sara

Sara,
I'm guessing that you didn't fire off nearly as many frames with film as you do with digital.* Digital cameras are built as well as any of the old stuff.* The 20D is rated for 100,000 frames and the 1 series is rated for 200,000 before shutter replacement.* 100,000 frames is 4,167 rolls of 24exp film.* I estimate I have shot under a couple of hundred rolls in my lifetime.* I've shot 5000 digital images in the last couple of years.
Rich

develop 4200 rolls of film and the cost of the digital camera is not really that large in the whole scheme of things. Lenses, storage, etc will take some $ too.

[PhotoJoe]

I know that some mags are still shooting 8x10's! I'm pretty sure Bon Apetit is.

What fries me is the fact that in the old days, I marked up my film, polaroids and processing costs. Plus, film being slower to work with (speaking 4x5 primarily), I got less done in a day, which meant more days of work. Now, I spend THOUSANDS of dollars to work less and make less. I don't get it!

In my food photography, I don't think film will make up any ground, ever. I recently upgraded to 10.4 on my mac and my camera shooting software didn't like it. I didn't find this out until the day of the shoot, so I shot to CF card, then "sneakernet"ed it to the mac. My client complained that the extra 15 seconds was too slow. There is no way they'll accept 60 seconds - 3 minutes processing time on polaroids any more. And waiting for the messenger to come back with film....THEN scan it. Ain't gonna happen.

As far as shooting the high school seniors (yes, those are my 2 primary markets), digital allows me to produce more images, faster, which means more customers in a day and more income. Those are good things when my cameras are my only source of income.

I agree that from our perspective, upgradable cameras would be cool. Not for the stockholders, though. Remember, we're not buying film anymore....at least alot of us arent'. I haven't shot a roll in almost 3 years, give or take. That hurts the film companies. Fuji and Kodak turned to digital cameras. Even those that didn't offer film, like Nikon and Canon will not offer a cheap upgrade path in the near future. They are making money hand over fist off of us, and once they've had it that way, they'll never want to change.

The good thing about where we are right now in the technology is that it is good....really good. Will it get better? Of coarse. However, my Minolta RD-175 sucked on 8x10 or larger. That camera had to go. I'm shooting with a 10d for people right now. It's "good" but not "great". I'm getting closer, though. The 5D (yes, I'm buying one as soon as I possibly can!) will (hopefully)be able to do 30x40's with no problem. This means that the NEED to upgrade will come less frequently. I know there are those that just have to have the latest and greatest, and if they have the budget, great. Good for them. I do not. With the 10d, I decided to skip the 20d and wait for the next generation. I will buy the 5D and will probably skip two generations. Maybe more. I think digital is now to the point that film was, or at least really close. The quality is there, so the only reason to upgrade is if it breaks, or it doesn't fit your business needs. If I had the funds to buy a 1DsII, I would, and would probably never need to replace it until it broke. I can't imagine, with my business as it is now, ever needing more quality than that. Canon is hard at work though, coming up with something new in an effort to change my mind, and take more of my money.

[ellette]

Originally Posted by metalstorm

Sara,
I'm guessing that you didn't fire off nearly as many frames with film as you do with digital.* Digital cameras are built as well as any of the old stuff.* The 20D is rated for 100,000 frames and the 1 series is rated for 200,000 before shutter replacement.* 100,000 frames is 4,167 rolls of 24exp film.* I estimate I have shot under a couple of hundred rolls in my lifetime.* I've shot 5000 digital images in the last couple of years.
Rich

develop 4200 rolls of film and the cost of the digital camera is not really that large in the whole scheme of things.* Lenses, storage, etc will take some $ too.

I don't know...just this year already I've probably shot over 1000 pictures. Not all keepers, not by a long shot. We buy our film at Costco because of how much I shoot, and if I'm on a roll (hehe...sorry, couldn't help it), I can easily use 36 shots in a day, and would do more if I didn't make myself quit. Now, the cost of developing the NON keepers is one of the many reasons I have for wanting to get the digital. The thing is though, cameras like my FIL have that he got back in the '70's and used extensively (he was a photographer for a private eye as well as a police department for many years) is still going strong and probably will last through me getting the 20D, wearing out the 20D, and then wearing out whatever next camera I get...if it doesn't also outlast ME wearing out! It is nice to think about how much it is I have shot this year and how that would in theory give me 100 years of shooting, but I also know that I've been holding myself back. I have taken hardly any pictures the last few months because I always think that if I just wait till I have my digital then I won't have to bother with scanning it and then I don't take the picture. I KNOW that I'll be taking more shots when I have my digital, especially when I've got the 70-200 lens as well!

You are certainly right that developing pictures, especially ones that didn't turn out the way you wanted them to, can justify getting a digital! I'm SO tired of developing stuff, I know that I could probably have saved enough for the 20D just by not taking any pictures for a year, but I can't do that.

Anyway...I think I'm agreeing with you here, just in a confusing sort of way. What do you expect, I got about 3 1/2 hours of sleep last night and it is almost midnight already. I'm going to bed. I have school tomorrow...first time in I won't tell you how many years! I'm starting Japanese, and am very excited!

Sara

[MelissaRae]

It's so hard to say where the medium and large format film cameras will stand in 10 years. Tho I do own a 20D, I am still a proud owner of a Mamiya Pro. I would also love to own a large format some day. This for me is all in the realm of hobbying. It would be such a shame if the costs of darkroom supplies do elevate, as I heard many suspect they wil,l due to lack of demand in the digital world. Even tho I appreciate the quick results of the digicams, I still have a love for working in a darkroom.

So I don't know, but I'm hoping for film die hards to keep the film hobby still going so I can have my cake and eat it too

[dc2]

My first digital a 10d my 2nd a 1Ds2 my next camera? thinking of getting a film camera
I still miss my old pentax k1000 a tottally manual camera wth a simplicity I miss and I loved the pictures it captured.
But I would use it as a second camera just because of the price of film

[scoundrel1728]

Originally Posted by Melissa

It's so hard to say where the medium and large format film cameras will stand in 10 years. Tho I do own a 20D, I am still a proud owner of a Mamiya Pro. I would also love to own a large format some day. This for me is all in the realm of hobbying. It would be such a shame if the costs of darkroom supplies do elevate, as I heard many suspect they wil,l due to lack of demand in the digital world. Even tho I appreciate the quick results of the digicams, I still have a love for working in a darkroom.

So I don't know, but I'm hoping for film die hards to keep the film hobby still going so I can have my cake and eat it too

Is it mainly black & white or color that you develop? I ask because color is a lot more hassle and expense and you don't get to see the prints coming up in the developer as you could with black and white.

One thing that pushed me out of photography for years is that I had had it with the limitations of black and white and the operating expense of color photography was too much to enjoy. I didn't start getting into photography again until the image quality of semi-affordable digital equipment become satisfactory to a hobbyist. I carefully weigted the costs between film and digital and the quality I could expect from digital before deciding on a Nikon Coolpix 950 in June 1999. I already had the computer equipment and printer. I figured that my Coolpix would pay for itself after something like 2-3000 shots, which I expected to take a few years to complete. Even though I made a special effort not to inflate the exposure rate with bracketing or other duplicate shots, I blew through those 3000 shots in one year.

I still have the 950, which I use as a backup and my wife uses when she needs a camera, but the battery door and the power mode switch had to be replaced under warranty and they really need to be replaced again, especially the battery door. Right now, library tape is holding the batteries in place.

[metalstorm]

Originally Posted by ellette

I don't know...just this year already I've probably shot over 1000 pictures.* Not all keepers, not by a long shot.* We buy ... Sara

I didn't realize you haven't made the switch to digital yet.* If ruggedness is a concern, I'd go with a 1 series in the Canon line.* 200,000 frame rated shutter, etc.* Though a 1200 frames a year on a 20D would be nothing.* I've at about 3000 frames on mine in 11 months and I consider myself a light shooter.* Looks like you spend about $500 a year in film and processing.* Part of will go away when you make the move.

Some others here could offer up the pro line in their preferred brand to also consider.* I'm a Canon shooter so I'm not totally up on the other brands and don't you to exclude them based on my loyalty.

Things to consider when moving to digital will be safe storage of the files.*

And to actually answer your intial question: I don't think film will ever go away but I don't think there will be any surge in popularity for it either. Technology will eventually capture most of the market and leave the purests with their film. There's a reason my I don't listen to my vinyl disks anymore. The purest audiophile will tell you with the right equipment, the analog recordings sound better. But I still listen to the CD because it pretty darn good and it's sure convenient being digtial and small.

[MelissaRae]

Originally Posted by scoundrel1728

Is it mainly black & white or color that you develop?* I ask because color is a lot more hassle and expense and you don't get to see the prints coming up in the developer as you could with black and white.

One thing that pushed me out of photography for years is that I had had it with the limitations of black and white and the operating expense of color photography was too much to enjoy.* I didn't start getting into photography again until the image quality of semi-affordable digital equipment become satisfactory to a hobbyist.* I carefully weigted the costs between film and digital and the quality I could expect from digital before deciding on a Nikon Coolpix 950 in June 1999.* I already had the computer equipment and printer.* I figured that my Coolpix would pay for itself after something like 2-3000 shots, which I expected to take a few years to complete.* Even though I made a special effort not to inflate the exposure rate with bracketing or other duplicate shots, I blew through those 3000 shots in one year.*

I still have the 950, which I use as a backup and my wife uses when she needs a camera, but the battery door and the power mode switch had to be replaced under warranty and they really need to be replaced again, especially the battery door.* Right now, library tape is holding the batteries in place.

I did take one color class at school, which I really enjoyed and loved the results, but for me, it's black and white for my home darkroom. I enjoyed color, but I prefer to leave that to the labs.

Since I have a lousy printer with no funds for a good one in the near future, I use a prolab for when I want the hard copy. This place has great prices and I'm not sure I could actually print myself for what they charge... or that it would be worth all the time trying to calibrate monitor to print since I'm not real savvy there.

I think film will stick around for quite some time, but as digital overwhelmes the market, it will become more costly to have a hobbyist dark room.