Replacing flash units w/strobes need advice

[SQUONK]

Hello and thank you for taking the time to assist me. For sometime now I have been taking portraits using standard reflective umbrellas (two) with a three flash unit combination shooting into each of them. I have been pretty successful and again have another job to shoot dance portraits. With the number of students the battery operated flash units with require a lot of attention which I no longer care to spend. So now I am finally going to purchase 2 strobes, but I am not sure of what power unit I should purchase. Comparably speaking I was using 3 Canon 540EZ flash units per umbrella, but found this to be lacking in power when I photographed a group of 12 people (4X3). So I would like to purchase 2 strobes each having more power than three flash units or able to take inside group pictures of approximately 15 people. I appreciate your comments and allowing me to join your group discussions.

[chris78cpr]

I'd start looking at a couple of 500w heads. You don't mention if you want mains powered or battery powered?

There are some reasonably priced Elinchrom kits that are mains powered that come with umbrellas/softboxes, etc. Best place to look as they are very well built.

The other alternative being USA based is the Alien Bees that have a cult following. I've heard they are very good, i have no experience of them as i'm UK based although they seem to have very good reviews and are from a very good company.

[Songman45]

The Alien Bees as suggested might be a very valid option for you. These units are several times more powerful than your current setup. If you are looking for portability, the company that makes them also offers a portable power supply. Dollar-for-dollar this could be a less expensive option than investing in higher power battery only flashes such as Lumedyne or Quantum.

Steve

[SQUONK]

Thanks for the suggestions and yes I was currently thinking of powering the units by AC voltage and never considered powering them by DC probably due to the cost although I don't know what that would be. One more question, the alien bees have a power slider to set power output while most other brands have digital control. Since I am not familiar with the Bees does anyone feel that this is an electrical weak link and how repeatable would it be to place the slider back into the same position to repeat the same power output if needed? Again, I appreciate everyone’s feedback!

[Songman45]

I don't depend on either digital read-outs or makrings on sliders when setting flash. I use a meter each time the set-up changes. I don't find the slider controls a weakness at all. I have them on both White Lightning (made by the same company as ABs) and on Photogenic brand monolights. Once set the output is consistant.

[Gonzogolf]

The sliding scales on the alien bees are clearly marked and you could certainly mark them if you want to remember a certain spot on the slider. I find I fine tune the power setting for each setup anyway so thats nor a major concern for me. The bees are cheaper than canon speedlites and are nice and compact for portable use.

[lkeeney]

I have been using Alien Bees lights for 6-7 years now, and I think they are the best you can get for the money. Alien Bees also has a great selection of light modifiers.

As others have mentioned, I don't find the analog slider to be a problem. In fact, it is much quicker to change the setting when you want. I too, don't use the power setting values printed on the slider, but use a light meter to get the setting I want.

[SQUONK]

Great replies...thank you, but I may have misled some people. I was trying to get technical without getting too technical. So just to clarify I wasn't looking to set the same power settings for each photo, but rather wondered if there were issues with the slide adjustment with time...please read on. I believe that the slide power control on the Alien Bees is an electro-mechanical device similar to a potentiometer or rheostat. It controls power settings by mechanical actuation (the slide arm) of an electrical contact (wiper arm) along a coiled length of wire - the coil. This would incorporate the actual contact of two electrical conductors - analog control. Typically over time the actual contact surfaces deteriorate in the position where the power slider is used most and that’s why I was asking if it the slide position was repeatable. On many of the other brand strobes they utilize microprocessor control (digital control - no moving parts) which is more reliable. I just want to say that this is my assumption about how the power slide control works and I am asking for someone to confirm it and for their experience with the unit. Maybe I will post this as a new thread? It seems that many people have a lot of good things to say about the Bees. Do you have to buy the Bees direct from the manufacturer or can they be purchased at a better price from a distributor? Again thanks for all the input.

[lkeeney]

Originally Posted by SQUONK

Great replies...thank you, but I may have misled some people. I was trying to get technical without getting too technical. So just to clarify I wasn't looking to set the same power settings for each photo, but rather wondered if there were issues with the slide adjustment with time...please read on. I believe that the slide power control on the Alien Bees is an electro-mechanical device similar to a potentiometer or rheostat. It controls power settings by mechanical actuation (the slide arm) of an electrical contact (wiper arm) along a coiled length of wire - the coil. This would incorporate the actual contact of two electrical conductors - analog control. Typically over time the actual contact surfaces deteriorate in the position where the power slider is used most and that’s why I was asking if it the slide position was repeatable. On many of the other brand strobes they utilize microprocessor control (digital control - no moving parts) which is more reliable. I just want to say that this is my assumption about how the power slide control works and I am asking for someone to confirm it and for their experience with the unit. Maybe I will post this as a new thread? It seems that many people have a lot of good things to say about the Bees. Do you have to buy the Bees direct from the manufacturer or can they be purchased at a better price from a distributor? Again thanks for all the input.

From what little I know, the power slider in the Alien Bees is no different in basic design than those used in the large audio mixing control panels in hundreds or thousands of recording studios.

I could see a possible problem if you come up with a lighting setup which you want to duplicate at some point in the future, but if it were me, I would prefer to rely on my flash meter to make sure the light intensity is what I want.

Even with digital control, you are only controlling the power delivered to the flash tubes. I would think that over time, you would have more deterioration in the specific light output from a flash tube than you would have due to changes in a power slider.

There are also so many other factors that can effect the actual light that reaches your subject that are subject to change also. This is why I like using a flash meter.

[motox424]

Originally Posted by SQUONK

Great replies...thank you, It seems that many people have a lot of good things to say about the Bees. Do you have to buy the Bees direct from the manufacturer or can they be purchased at a better price from a distributor? Again thanks for all the input.

I just picked up two B800's from a B&S forum after months of debating.
There are other distributors, but only in the USA now. Prices are pretty much the same as the manufatures. Resale value is just about the same as new also, unless you get extremely lucky like I did

[Songman45]

Originally Posted by motox424

I just picked up two B800's from a B&S forum after months of debating.
There are other distributors, but only in the USA now. Prices are pretty much the same as the manufatures. Resale value is just about the same as new also, unless you get extremely lucky like I did

Scott,
Paul C. Buff only sells factory direct, there are no distributors in the US.

[Gonzogolf]

From what I understand the upcoming update of the AB line, the Einstein will have digital controls.

[SQUONK]

Thanks again for all the great replies. I have also placed this same discussion on another forum that I belong to and no one has even responded in over a week, so I really appreciate your comments. Anyways...I needed to purchase new strobes for an upcoming shoot so I went with the Alien Bees "B800" I guess that I couldn't go wrong with so many positive comments. The thing that really won me over was the overwhelming comments about superior customer service which is hard to find these day. I also found out that the units are now supplied with a 150w modeling light in place of the previous supplied 100w.

[Gonzogolf]

Originally Posted by SQUONK

Thanks again for all the great replies. I have also placed this same discussion on another forum that I belong to and no one has even responded in over a week, so I really appreciate your comments. Anyways...I needed to purchase new strobes for an upcoming shoot so I went with the Alien Bees "B800" I guess that I couldn't go wrong with so many positive comments. The thing that really won me over was the overwhelming comments about superior customer service which is hard to find these day. I also found out that the units are now supplied with a 150w modeling light in place of the previous supplied 100w.

Its a household bulb so its a $2 upgrade regardless

[SQUONK]

Hello Mr. Gonzo Golf,

The shape of the light is like no other that I have ever seen before, certainly never in any houshold that I've been in. It has a standard Edison base but it is approximately 4" long, tube shaped and frosted. What light unit in a household use that shaped bulb? If you know were I can find this type of bulb for a few dollars please let me know, because it would be nice to have a spare or two on hand.

Thanks for the input

[Songman45]

Look in home improvement centers. That bulb shape is used for several specialty applications. Lavatory fixtures come to mind first, where four such bulbs are used across a span to light up a bathroom mirror. Be aware that the same bulb shape is used for low wattage bulbs like fish aquarium lights, and special lights for growing plants. I believe the bulbs in the PCB quipment is 250w. If memory serves me correctly you can use a standard household bulb as a modeling light, if you are in a pinch.

[vadim]

Originally Posted by lkeeney

I have been using Alien Bees lights for 6-7 years now, and I think they are the best you can get for the money. Alien Bees also has a great selection of light modifiers.

As others have mentioned, I don't find the analog slider to be a problem. In fact, it is much quicker to change the setting when you want. I too, don't use the power setting values printed on the slider, but use a light meter to get the setting I want.

I second that. I owned a few ABs once and then was lured into more modern digitally controlled lights. And guess what. Digital gave me nothing but problems with portable power supply. You cannot just take a Vagabond or Tronix power supply and stick three digital lights into it like you would do with analog lights. And I immediately started missing a power slider when I realized that in order to go from min to max I need push a button 60 times ! So after going through several lights I sold all of them an bought a set of Alien Bees again and cannot be happier.

[Ed Shapiro]

You needn't worry about "cult followings" and other hyperbole pertaining to good flash equipment. If you are UK based you may be better off, service and availability wise, with Bowens units which is well manufactured and reliable flash equipment. In fact the ABs are good lights and here, in North America, their guarantee and repair service is impeccable.I have use Bowens units for years and have never had problems with preformance or service- some of my units are 30 years old and still functioning well. You will want to check with your supplier as to the availability of various types of flash units. I think you can deal directly with Paul C. Buff, the maker of the ABs

Here is a few tips that may help you:

When you use two or more weaker units in one umbrella, you are only gaining about 1/2 of an f/stop- it is not the same as using one powerful flash unit where you can expect to gain about a full f/stop each time you increase the power by 100 watt/seconds.

As long as you have access to electrical outlets when you are on location, AC units are fine- don't forget to bring along a selection of extension cords and tape the down so as to prevent accidents.

As to circuitry: There are different way of controlling power output of electronic flash equipment. The two most common methods are (1) to increase and decrease the high voltage input to the capacitor banks by means of a potentiometer like device and the accompanying circuitry and (2) by adding and subtracting capacitors from the circuit bu means of switches which are protected by wire wound resistor networks so the the switches will not be damaged by voltage surges. In well made equipment, neither of theses systems should fail under normal use. Nowadays there is more sophisticated solid state circuitry to prevent arcing and other catastrophic malfunction to occur during switching.

It is nice to have units that have a good range of power settings so that you can control depth of field when doing portraiture. You may want to use selective focus for certain kinds of portrait work and employ more power and hence more depth of field for groups and situations where you want to include more background detail. A 5 stop range works well for me. Since you are using umbrellas, you need the additional power to compensate for the light lost in bouncing.

I hope this helps. Ed

[SQUONK]

Thanks for your input Ed. I have recently completed a portrait session of thirty individual karate students using the AllienBees with a green screen background...what a learning curve that was. I realize now how critical it is to get the lighting even on the green screen, but that brings up a good question. Since I am taking full body pictures with strobes how do I avoid the shadows created by the strobes on the back drop? I did use flood lights to evenly illuminate the background and relied on the strobes to illuminate the subject and foreground (and some of the background). I did not use a light meter so possibly I could have used less light and adjusted my camera accordingly thus creating less shadow, but I want to eliminate all shadows. I then used several different Photoshop techniques to remove the background and replace it with the customer's selected background. I will soon be loading a few examples of my work for everyone to view.

[Ed Shapiro]

RE Shadows on the background.

Those shadows of that nature are usually caused by the subject being too close to the background when the main light is off camera, especially if the main light is placed at less than 30 or 35 degrees off the camera.subject axis. In full length shots you may not have enough width to cover the lense's angle of acceptance, you may want to use a wider background so that you can move the subject further from the background. Shadows on the floor are usually fine as long as the don't run up the wall- where the is light, there is shadow so shadows on the floor should seem natural.

I would imagine that if you are photographing marshal arts positions, moves or actions, you will need lots of space. I did some images for my Judo dojo for a book on Kata, so I know what you are up against. At that shoot, I used a gray background and used allot of bounce light so that in the action shots there were no shadows cast from one combatant onto the other and with the gray background, the gees did not blend into a white background and the belts contrasted nicely over the gees. I was going to use a black background but that can lead to printing issues especially if low quality lithography is employed.

So...move the lights around- try a slightly higher position of the main and see what you can do about expanding the background. Good luck! Every system has bug that need to be worked out!

Ed