First Time With Metz Flash

[KellyL]

Got my Metz 45CL-4 digital and was trying to learn how to use it. This thread is a continuation of a thread started in Weddings, however, since I am now asking for help on technique, I am posting this here.

I am not looking for anyone to say anything about the pictures other than the lighting. What exactly is acceptable? What should I be looking for?



This is also my first attempt at pulling pictures in from another website.

I am trying to understand how to create a stunning sunset portrait using ambient light as well as flash without looking too flashed.

Test 1: This image was taken after several other attempts. I noticed that the flash was hitting the ground in front of Ray, so I moved closer. ISO 400, f/18, 1/30. I really wanted to have an f/5.6 for this picture, but I couldn't get the wider aperture and still drag the shutter. And of course, I forgot what I set the Metz at. I was trying to set the Metz one stop higher than the aperture, so I may have had this at f/22, but I highly doubt it.


Test 2:
ISO 100, f/9.0, 1/50
Kelly...hello...what did you set your Metz flash on? I believe it was on Auto, f/11.

Test 3:

I dialed the Metz down, but of course, without the exact number, this is pointless. However, the flash is beginning to resemble the ambient light. I think I want them to be one stop higher than the ambient light. Is that true?



Test 4:

I put this photo in so you can see how dark it is beginning to get. This was a handheld shot, ISO 100, f/9.0, 1/50. Of course, once again, some foolish boy expected the camera to determine what the Metz flash was set on.



Test 5: ISO 100, f/4.0, 1/15, handheld. What I had the Metz set on is a mystery. I am going to return to this thread, do some more shots, and carefully record the Metz settings for each picture. I know that that what I have done here is virtually useless since I don't include the Metz settings. But I did learn how to include a photo and have more of an essay. That, to me, is helpful.

I was shocked I could set the camera so low, handhold, and get this good of a shot.

[craigsexton]

Hey Kelly,

Glad to see you out and about trying the Metz. Did you get the wireless going?

Anyway, your doing the exact same stuff I'm going to work on this weekend.

In test one: did you try it at around f/8.0, 1/30th? If so, did it overexpose? The reason I ask is that this is what I would try from the get go. My thinking is (from Mark's explanations) that the flash is only going to expose for the subjects and therefore the f/8, 1/30th would bring in the beautiful ambient light in the horizon. This may be totally wrong though. But one thing that still gets me is how should I be metering for this exact same shop? Partial? How did you meter? I would think that you would never meter spot or what about evaluative? I just don't know yet.

Craig

[Jason Hermann]

Great thread Kelly!! I was fallowing the "dragging the shutter" thread over in weddings, and I look forward to any info on this subject!! I really want to get some picture like this, but have failed at all attempts. Yours are certainly heading in the right direction and came out way better than mine!! #1 and # 3 look pretty good I think

Jay

[Nikonfreak]

Interesting. Looks like my set of first workthrough shots with the Metz as well. You have to test the limits and boundaries.

For the sunset shot, off the top of my head and an initial first shot, I'd have put the Metz about 6-8 feet away from the subject and clipped it off wirelessly at about f/4 in Auto mode and dragged the shutter for the ambient, but I don't know what your ISO was. I'd have set the shutter at 1/15 and f/8 or so at ISO 400-640 for the first stab if I had to guesstimate a first shot.

The last one looks great!

All flash units, like all cameras, have their little quirks you have to fiddle with to understand how the camera is going to react just like you have to figure out how they are going to work together.

Julio

[youngster]

Hey Kelly,

Just trying to get a better understanding of what you are doing here. When you set up this shot, what are you metering for? In other words, where is your starting point? Are you metering for the couple, the sky or the ambient light in the background?

Also, when you say ambient light are you referring to the field or is the sky your main interest?

I think what Craigsexton is saying is going in the right direction. What I would do is start off metering for the sky and let the flash expose for the couple.

Sorry for the questions, but I am asking this because your apertures seem to be all over the place and I'm not sure exactly where you are starting from.

Also, I see you, like me have the Lightsphere. In the instructional DVD they have a model shoot on a boat. What they did was expose for the sky using the camera's highest flash sync, use TTL fill flash to expose for the model. Now, I know the sphere isn't going on the metz, but the premise is the same for setting up the shot.


John

[KellyL]

Thanks guys. I need to understand a few things:
1.) What atmospheric conditions need to be present to predict a good sunset.
2.) I need to get the Metz off the camera and onto a stand. I am waiting for my radio units to arrive, and until then, I am stuck on camera.
3.) How to expose for ambient light. Which metering system to use. I was using spot metering in all of these, as it seems that would be the best thing to meter the sky, IF that is the correct thing to do. I spot metered the sky to the left of the sun, then set my Metz one stop higher than the meter read. Given that it was on camera, I don't think the results were fair.
4.) I have no idea how I did the last shot. I need to make sure I am recording the details or I will not learn.

[KellyL]

Thanks John, for asking.

I want the sky metered correctly. I want to be able to produce a rich sunset with the couple exposed appropriately so that it doesn't look like someone held a flashlight on them.

The aperatures were all over the place as the light was shifting rapidly and I was trying to find the right combination of shutter speed, ISO setting and aperature.

Michael reported in one of the other threads that the SHUTTER SPEED should be the factor for determining ambient, and the APERTURE should be the factor determinng flash.

So my understanding of this is as follows: I meter for the sky to create the beautiful sunset. If the meter in the camera suggested ISO 100, f/11, 1/60, then I would need to make adjustments for a larger aperture in order to drag the shutter and get more ambient light in. So, If I kept ISO at 100, f/8, that would allow for 1/30...which is getting closer to a setting that would allow for a richer sunset.

Once I determined that, I would set my Metz on Auto, f/11, ISO 100. However, I need to get the Metz off camera so I can place it closer to the couple to figure out if this is actually what I am wanting.

I suggest this "formula" based upon Mark McCall's posting in "More Fun With the Metz" where he exposed the background at f/4.0 and set his Metz at f/5.6. (Just now looking back at that thread, I see that he had his shutter set at 1/100. It was evening and perhaps that shutter speed will allow for enough ambient to create the portrait he did. http://www.photocamel.com/forum/wedd...etz-flash.html)

One of the things that doesn't make sense to me is how I can set both a low aperture AND a low shutter speed to drag the shutter AND have the flash work correctly.

Did all of this babble make any sense?

[KellyL]

Craig (and any other expermenter) I am looking forward to exchangning pictures and settings here on this thread so we can get this figured out.

Thanks again everybody! Let's make this a valuable experience for all of us! (Which means, keep coming back to this thread because I hardly have any idea what I am doing and I desperately need your help. )

[harryd]

Kelly if your metering the sky and get that right, is your only option to change the amount of flash to get the person lit correctly? Inside the ambient light does not change like it does in your sunset photos so I was able play with different shutter speeds to change how the background was lit. I will be watching this closely to try to learn something.

[youngster]

Kelly wrote:

"So my understanding of this is as follows: I meter for the sky to create the beautiful sunset. If the meter in the camera suggested ISO 100, f/11, 1/60, then I would need to make adjustments for a larger aperture in order to drag the shutter and get more ambient light in. So, If I kept ISO at 100, f/8, that would allow for 1/30...which is getting closer to a setting that would allow for a richer sunset. "


Yes, that is what I was looking for. I agree with that theory. The flash is going to expose for the couple and it's shutter speed that's going to allow the ambient light in. It makes sense and now I have a better understanding of what you were going for.


The one thing I will caution about tho, is keep an eye on those flash values. One can take all the readings of the ambient light they want, but if the couple is out of the flash range, it won't work. I know Metz recommends the subject be in the middle third of the maximum flash distance for best accuracy. (I'm not saying that's the case in your pictures, just bringing it up )

I agree with about keeping this thread open. I haven't tried this particular set-up in over a year and that was on film. When I can I am going to make an attempt or two of my own and will post the results.


John

[Mike_e]

If I may barge in here and ask, does what I have been doing sound like what you are?
(sometimes the language thing...)

I first set the aperture and flash for correct exposure in manual. Second I meter the background and then under expose by 1 to 2 stops (more if there isn't enough light) to set the mood with the shutter speed.

The flash freezes the subject and the background is under exposed enough to hide any camera shake (hopefully). Is that about right?

mike

[KellyL]

Mike...barge away! We are looking for all help here. Sounds like the same thing only you are exposing for the flash first. Now would one do that? Would you trip the flash with your light meter, expose, read, set camera, check exposure, then decrease shutter speed by one or two stops?

[craigsexton]

Kelly, I've been thinking about how I would attempt this. Of course I'm probably backasswards on this. But I would simply meter the sunset in evaluative metering mode. Lets say that on 400 ISO its f5.6, 1/30th. Then I'd set the flash to ISO 400 f4.

If I understand the Metz system, then the thyrister knows when the subject is properly exposed. Therefore the red indicator on the back of the flash and it shuts off. Now if you're close in settings on the camera to the original metering, then you should be ok. If anything speed up the shutter to under expose the sunset a little.

Does this make any sense? The more I read over it and think about it the more confused I become.

I'm going out and will try it tonight. I don't think we'll have any nice sunsets in the hills of east TN. But, I'll try it anyway.
Pics to come later.

Craig

[youngster]

Originally Posted by KellyL

Thanks John, for asking.

So my understanding of this is as follows: I meter for the sky to create the beautiful sunset. If the meter in the camera suggested ISO 100, f/11, 1/60, then I would need to make adjustments for a larger aperture in order to drag the shutter and get more ambient light in. So, If I kept ISO at 100, f/8, that would allow for 1/30...which is getting closer to a setting that would allow for a richer sunset.

I

Kelly it just hit me!!!! I guess I didn't pay full attention to the values the first time around.

I was driving home from my son's soccer game looking at the sunset when it dawned on me the values in this quote are wrong!!!

If you have a reading of f11 and a s/s 1/60th and open it up to F8 and 1/30th the scene would be overexposed. You cannot open the aperture and slow down the shutter to get the same values. If you wanted to get the same values of F11 and 1/60th you would have to go to f16 and 1/30th. In other words if you have to go in the opposite directions (to lengthen shutter time you have to stop down and if you open aperture you have to have a shorter shutter speed.) So if we went by your quote by opening the aperture to f8 you would in fact have to have a shutter speed of 1/125th which is opposite of what you want to do.

Anyways, sorry I should have caught that the first time around, but I am glad I caught it.


John

[craigsexton]

OK, I got to test my theory on how I thought it should work. Remember, this involve me thinking, so therefore its probably wrong.

So, I figured that I would like to have an aperature around f/8.0 for the correct DOF. So I metered with my L358 my Metz 45cl-4 til I got around f/8.0. Actually It ended up at 1/5th shutter and f/7.1. This is my camera settings for correct exposure on the subject. I knew that I should really pull in some good ambient light with 1/5th shutter speed.

So, my wife didn't like to stop on the album design from our last wedding to have her picture taken again. She says she's almost blind from the previous two weeks of playing with the "new" flash.

Anyway, the sky was almost complete black with a dark gray look to it (looks like it could storm). So, if I had a nice sunset I think the colors would really pop without making the subject look flashed to death.

I think the key here is to get the correct exposure on the subject but in the limits of the boundaries of the landscape.

What do you think?

[Mike_e]

Hi, me barging in again. If you can't noticeably effect the background and you don't want it to look like daylight then you have to meter and adjust for it in addition to the main subject, right? To get the background to look the way it ought then you have to change the exposure with shutter speed because the flash has the aperture reserved because the flash gun speed is for the most part set at ~1/8000 sec and the shutter speed will have no effect.

Since the main subject determines the aperture for DoF issues the flash is set to accommodate this and thus the aperture and flash are set. That leaves the problem of the background looking like a bad low key shot.

So to bring up the background you use the aperture setting and find out what the s/speed would have to be to bring the exposure up to mimic daylight.

Once this speed is determined you then under expose to darken the background and show the mood of the scene. Once you have the background exposed and compensated and the flash is ready to go for correct exposure on the subject, you are ready to shoot.

I hope I didn't ramble too much but this works for me.

mike

[KellyL]

Mike, you really are not barging in. BE-LEEE-VE me. We want all the help we can get. Hopefully my radio units will be here tomorrow and I will be able to do some more testing. I want to get the Metz off camera and see what I can do. One of the problems with all of these shots is the flash gun isn't at the proper distance from the subject. For me to achieve that, I need my radio units. Dang. Why is Honk Kong so far away

[KellyL]

My radio slaves came in the mail today...but because we live in such a small town and do not have home delivery and because I did not get into the post office prior to 10:30, they are still in the post office...waiting for me to pick them up on MONDAY.

So...today I decided to go out and work on understanding photography more. Brian is working on his Eagle badge, and organized a town wide food drive. As I was leaving town, they were in the square organizing the goods. I stopped by with my new Metz flash to get a quick shot. They obliged.

ISO 100, 24mm (17 - 55 mm, f/2.9 IS USM), handheld, f/9.0, 1/250 second, Metz set at f/11. I tried to judge the distance between them and me for this shot and keep them in half of the front third of the Metz range. I spot metered for the sky...

[KellyL]

I placed the data on this picture. I am getting closer to the results I am looking for, however, look at those shadows.

Questions:

1) In my mind, setting the Metz at f/2.8 gives the Metz LESS flashpower because an f/2.8 setting lets more light in the camera?
2) An ISO setting of 800 on the Metz reduces the amount of flash over an ISO setting of 400? The lower the ISO setting, the slower the "film", the more light the Metz will pump out? So on the Metz, an ISO of 100 would pump out twice as much light as an ISO of 200?
3) Slow shutter speed helps capture ambient light. The slower the shutter speed the more ambient light will be captured. True?
4) Aperture setting and flash setting should be in sync. HOWEVER when I use the aperture setting on my camera on the Metz, the pictures are blown out. Mark suggested that if your background is 4.0 then your Metz would be set at 5.6. So.....does that mean that at a 5.6 the Metz is pumping out more light than at 4.0? If so, wouldn't that blow out the picture even more?
5) Faster ISO reduces shadow? True or false. A shadow would be very distinct at ISO 100 and less distinct at ISO 800?
6) Since I am mildly dyslexic, why am I trying to jumble all these numbers that are so easily confused? Small aperture number, large opening. Do you see how that can get befuddling to a mildly dyslexic individual? (I know this sounds odd...but my mild dyslexia is associated with number sense not the position of letters...like on an anlaog clock...12:05 and 11:55 are easily confused), so the numbers and light output which seem to contradict each other get very confused in my head.

Anyway, any comments and answers are MORE THAN WELCOMED!!!!!

[Nikonfreak]

Try that same shot with the Metz at ISO 400 and f/4 and chances are it would have been exactly what you'd been looking for... camera setting unchanged.

Setting the Metz at f/2.8 will put out less flash than putting it at f/8. At f/2.8, the lens aperature of your camera is open wider and as such will need less flash for an exposure. (generally speaking) ...

Number 2 depends on the scene...not all scenes are the same.

Mark said the Metz fires one stop hot, which I think is totally accurate. Therefore, if you set the Metz at f/4, it's probably firing more like f/5.6

ISO has no impact on shadow directly. Shadows exist from where the light isn't hitting. The only way of removing shadows is to either put some light on the shadow area or change the direction or intensity of the light causing it.

The slower shutter speed will allow more ambient light in. Correct.

Dyslexics of the world UNTIE!



Julio