First Time With Metz Flash

[KellyL]

Well Michael, you come pretty dang close. How in the world do you keep up with all of your studies, know so much about photography, run the school newspaper and solve its myriad of problems, and stay on top of all these threads? Not to mention, find one of the coolest avatar's on the Camel planet?

So the f/16 rule for a sunny day says put shutter speed at film speed and set aperture at f/16. It is an old rule from an old school before one could see what he or she was shooting by looking at the back of the camera, no? But what you ar-a tellin me is that I would start with that exposure, try it, and then chimp as needed? Yes?

Public Service Announcement: Chimp is an expression I learned by hanging out on the Camel. No offense to Chimps is inferred nor implied. If you observe an incorrect usage of the word chimp, please contact the poster at your earliest convenience so he may not commit the same error again. We now return you to our regularly scheduled thread.

[cyclohexane]

How in the world do you keep up with all of your studies, know so much about photography, run the school newspaper and solve its myriad of problems, and stay on top of all these threads?

I don't run the newspaper, thankfully; I just shoot for it.

As for studies, I just tackle one thing at a time. It helps that photography is part of my studies, so "Browsing PhotoCamel" can be attributed to studying. Also, I'm trying to figure out how to justify a Hasselblad as a "school-related expense", LOL. =)

Avatar is a screencap from the newest Legend of Zelda game's website, cropped.

But what you ar-a tellin me is that I would start with that exposure, try it, and then chimp as needed? Yes?

No, what I am saying is that you can use Sunny 16 to calculate your other exposures. At ISO 100:

1/6400 sec f/2.0
1/3200 sec f/2.8
1/1600 sec f/4
1/800 sec f/5.6
1/400 sec f/8
1/200 sec f/11
1/100 sec f/16
1/50 sec f/22

and so on...

[kgphoto]

Yes, but why is IT the starting place.

It all comes down to equivalent exposures for a given ASA/ISO. The sun is always the same power. It doesn't get closer or farther from the Earth(in a practical sense). So the lumens or foot candles remain the same.

So since ASA 25 is half that of ASA 50 which is half that of ASA 100, 200, 400 800 and so one, there is one value that works for that film speed. You can set the Shutter speed and the f:stop to any combination that adds up to that amount of light reaching the film which will make a correct exposure. This is called an Exposure Value or EV.

For ASA 100, it is 1/500 @ f:8.0 or EV 15. Since if you open up one stop you need to close down one stop that gets you to 1/250 @ f:11.0, or 1/125 @ f:16. All of these combinations equal EV 15.

If you change ASA to 200, then the shutter speed needs to go up to 1/250. It is close, but not perfect, but this was good enough when using film back in the point and shoot models by Kodak.

I am sure the real scholarly number crunchers will be able to show the LogE graphic that explains this, but the above is the practical info.

[Nikonfreak]

Originally Posted by kgphoto

Yes, but why is IT the starting place.

It all comes down to equivalent exposures for a given ASA/ISO. The sun is always the same power. It doesn't get closer or farther from the Earth(in a practical sense). So the lumens or foot candles remain the same.

So since ASA 25 is half that of ASA 50 which is half that of ASA 100, 200, 400 800 and so one, there is one value that works for that film speed. You can set the Shutter speed and the f:stop to any combination that adds up to that amount of light reaching the film which will make a correct exposure. This is called an Exposure Value or EV.

For ASA 100, it is 1/500 @ f:8.0 or EV 15. Since if you open up one stop you need to close down one stop that gets you to 1/250 @ f:11.0, or 1/125 @ f:16. All of these combinations equal EV 15.

If you change ASA to 200, then the shutter speed needs to go up to 1/250. It is close, but not perfect, but this was good enough when using film back in the point and shoot models by Kodak.

I am sure the real scholarly number crunchers will be able to show the LogE graphic that explains this, but the above is the practical info.

Hmm... technically speaking there is always, what, about 6 combinations of exposure that would provide a technically correct exposure, but only one that is correct from a creative standpoint? (Anyone else read the book "Understanding Exposure" by Bryan Peterson?)... That was probably the book that really clarified the exposure "triangle" and what and how with respect to exposure.

I highly recommend that book for everyone.

Julio

[kgphoto]

Nikonfreak,

I probably can't really argue with you on that point, but would many of us see the difference between f:11 and f:16?

Creative interpretations are all on the part of the artist. I was only commenting on the correctness of exposure and the derivation of the Sunny 16 rule.

[Nikonfreak]

Originally Posted by kgphoto

Nikonfreak,

I probably can't really argue with you on that point, but would many of us see the difference between f:11 and f:16?

Creative interpretations are all on the part of the artist. I was only commenting on the correctness of exposure and the derivation of the Sunny 16 rule.

Backlit... maybe... front lit... no.

Absolutely right on the second part

I'm sure someone covered it, but did anyone mention that the Sunny f/16 rule was for sunny, sun-over-your-shoulder conditions (read front lit subject) and that for overcast skies you open up one stop and for heavy overcast skies you open up two as a general rule?

Backlit subject you open up two if memory serves me right. Darn memory is the second thing to go.

Julio

[KellyL]

What is the first thing? Your hair?

I have read Bryan Peterson's exposure book twice. The triangle makes perfect sense. I am going to have to think over all of these things that all these wise guys are sharing because I don't know any of this...which is the fault of my formal edcuation in photography...there is none. I just make it up as I go along and share what I find and the wonderful folks here correct me.

[kgphoto]

Nikonfreak,
Click on the link Kelly found and it explains the Sunny 16 rule quite well. I think if you combined your information with that and printed it up here, we would all benefit.

[Mike_e]

Hi all. If I can jump in here for a bit.

As to the question of why you set the shutter speed to correspond to the ISO is easy when you look at it from the manufacturer's point of view. How else could you explain the time that it takes your product to react to light than by using constants? Your camera's aperture and the sun are constant so to describe the chemical's volatility you tell people it's value by describing it's speed in relation to the sun (a constant) and f16 (also a constant).

So, if your film is exposed properly in broad daylight at 1/100 seconds then the ASA (ISO) is 100. If I'm not mistaken every ISO rating corresponded to a shutter speed achievable by the camera for which the film was intended (you might have needed a pro body but hey..). Digital cameras were designed to mimic film cameras for ease of use so the sunny 16 rules still apply to them too.

HTH

mike

[Nikonfreak]

Originally Posted by kgphoto

Nikonfreak,
Click on the link Kelly found and it explains the Sunny 16 rule quite well. I think if you combined your information with that and printed it up here, we would all benefit.

I'll see if I can "paraphrase" it from Bryan Peterson's book a little and post it as a thread by itself.

I think everyone benefits by going over these kinds of things, myself included as we tend to overlook and skip over them, not necessarily forget them...but we tend to start focusing on other issues (building on the basics) then we all tend to frustrate ourselves because we forget to sometimes just refer back to the basics as time goes on.

I mean how many times do we go back and think, "Oh yeah...that's right...doh!"

Yesterday a couple of buddies and I went out taking pics at Vizcaya, an old mansion in Miami open to visitors (historic). I had this thread fresh in my mind. My first shot, I pointed the camera out in manual mode, ISO 100, shutter speed 1/100 and f/13 ... the camera's meter said I was overexposed by a bit... flipped to f/16 and the meter read a properly exposed photo... I smiled...remembering this thread...and thinking... darn if it isn't true every time you try it.

When it became overcast... I was shooting at f/11 ... darn if it wasn't true again..

Most of my shots from yesterday, regardless of the lens I was using, were at somewhere between f/11 and f/16 at ISO 100, and at 1/100 sec.

The only time it changed was in the shade, shooting with the 12-24 f/4 and under cover.

Julio

[Mark McCall]

Originally Posted by Mike_e

Hi all. If I can jump in here for a bit.

As to the question of why you set the shutter speed to correspond to the ISO is easy when you look at it from the manufacturer's point of view. How else could you explain the time that it takes your product to react to light than by using constants? Your camera's aperture and the sun are constant so to describe the chemical's volatility you tell people it's value by describing it's speed in relation to the sun (a constant) and f16 (also a constant).

So, if your film is exposed properly in broad daylight at 1/100 seconds then the ASA (ISO) is 100. If I'm not mistaken every ISO rating corresponded to a shutter speed achievable by the camera for which the film was intended (you might have needed a pro body but hey..). Digital cameras were designed to mimic film cameras for ease of use so the sunny 16 rules still apply to them too.

HTH

mike

Mike,
Not sure I understand your question, but I'll answer based on what I THINK your asking.
It seems you may be comparing indoor exposure to outdoor exposure.
Yes, aperture and shutterspeed together deterimine exposure outdoors, but it's not necessary to meter ambient light indoors when using flash.
You could probably even get by with using one or two aperture settings for an entire wedding.

What's more important with indoor flash exposures is that your flash output match your aperture on camera.

Kelly,
I want to comment more on your photos posted. I'm so busy, I haven't studied them close. I like what I see so far, though.

[Mike_e]

I'm sorry Mark, I was trying to explain why the Sunny 16 Rule works, which is because the film manufacturers used the rule to measure their chemistry and conform to a standard to keep the industry from dissolving into chaos.

In other words the chemistry was made to conform to the rule rather than the other way around.
(at least that's what they told me )

mike

[KellyL]

Continuing to practice with the Metz. Sophia is my model. She is very patient. All she asks is that I don't leave her behind somewhere and I explain when people stare at her.

[KellyL]

And the next set.

[KellyL]

The final set.

[KellyL]

And two outodoor shots.

[Nikonfreak]

Tell them that's your wife posing... and do they have a problem with that? (it helps to twitch an eye nervously when saying this)


I think it's looking better with a slower shutter speed for more ambient to come into the picture and the wink flash at about half power.

Question and comment.. Having shot the Metz 45 now at a couple of gigs, I know it's powerful. It looks like you might have a few hot spots on the dress that might be blown out a tad.

Keep the aperature down at around f/5.6, Metz set to f/4, and try a few with the Metz up a little higher, angled down to the subject but feathered across the front. (Are you using a bracket for the flash like the Crane bracket so you can angle the Metz? Wish I had a church to practice in.

Julio

[harryd]

Kelly I wish the church I shot at last weekend was this pretty. It was small and DARK. The only thing white in it was the brides dress and the spotlights. What your doing is inspiring me, I am wondering if you know, is there a way I can move my 580 flash off the camera other than the ST-E2 transmitter which I here it does not work well.

[KellyL]

Nikon: Laugh out loud funny! I think I need to do that.

[KellyL]

Julio...I do not know what a CRANE bracket is. I need to find out what that is because crrently I am just mounting the flash onto the stand using the camera brace that came with the Metz. I also need to find a portable umbrella mount that can be attached. I would like to experiment with that also. And I need something to hold that dang radio unit instead of letting it flop around.

Harry...I am wondering if you can get a hot shoe adapter with a synch chord terminal and use one of the radio control units? Just a guess.