Please help - shopping list.

[ellette]

I'm narrowing things down I think.

I'm pretty sure I'm going to go with a 550EX and a Sunpak 383.* I'll be getting a lightsphere II, and then it is just the rest of the stuff I'm not as certain about.* Remember, up till now I've only used onboard flash, natural light, and lamps from around the house in a pinch!*

What do you all think about
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...ughType=search* Are they any good?* I like that even though I will likely have one flash on camera and one off, I could maybe end up using the other for my flash if I wanted, or I could rig it up to hold a reflector.* I also like that they are air cushioned...I'm a clutz and can just see trying to lower it and have it slam down and pinch my finger or something falling off (or I try to raise it and don't fasten it and the same thing happens but in the middle of a shoot!* : ).* I like that they are inexpensive, but I'd much rather spend more if these are no good.*

Beyond that, what else would I need?* The peanut right?* With the sunpak I'd need a pc cord wouldn't I?* I wouldn't need any connectors to hook the flash to the umbrella stand though if I got the impact duo I don't think.*

Ok, as far as lighting goes.* Here is my whole list that I've come up with so far.* I doubt I'll be buying it all from B&H, they aren't the cheapest with all the stuff and I do need to save money as much as possible so I have start up funds to be able to actually take pictures of the kids.

I know I'm asking a lot, but could you tell me if you think this list is ok, crud, or missing lots of stuff?* I can make my own sandbags so I don't need any of those btw.*

550 - http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...164263&is=GREY
Sunpakhttp://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...ughType=search
peanut slave http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...ughType=search
A Pc cord of some sort...have no clue what I need there.
Umbrellas and stands again...just so they are in the list.* * http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...ughType=search

This doesn't include my background and stand obviously, I'll get that probably around the end of the year.* I want to start going into hospitals around Feb..*

This all would run me about $542.80 at B&H (not including the pc cord since I haven't the foggiest which one I would need but including the lightsphere which isn't at B&H), and I know I could get some bits of it cheaper elsewhere.* I just don't want to be going too cheap, and I certainly don't want to be forgetting something.* I don't have a light meter in there, probably should but that may end up being end of the year stuff too and I'll try to get it all figured out on my own without the meter.

Sara

[JohnC]

That seems like it will work. Here are some random things going through my mind as I read through...

Do you really need the 550? What about two Sunpaks or Vivitars? Some folks like Canon's eTTL, others hate it. And even though the peanut slave is designed to ignore the 550s preflash, I find a lot of subjects blink from the preflash and have their eyes closed in the actual shot. Might be easier to just have two non-eTTL flashes.

Or maybe a 550 and a 420 so they can fire each other without wires or slaves and then maintain eTTL exposure control. But that does cost more.

Do you plan to have one flash on camera and one off? Might not need the umbrellas. I would try the Lightsphere on the on-camera flash and then point the other camera into a corner of the room for fill (I think you said these would be small rooms). Just need one light stand for that. And without the eTTL you might be able to use a different slave. Look at the Wein slaves that just mount to the hotshoe of the flash and don't need a cord. Or look at a Vivitar flash instead of the Sunpak that lets you connect the peanut directly to the flash.

I'd be tempted to try some tests with only the Lightsphere if the rooms are small. If you are in close on your subjects I think it will work well.

If I was doing this myself and wanted to use off-camera lights, I'd probably come at it differently. I'd look for one small portable strobe like an SP Excalibur or Alien Bee or some other small monolight with either a large umbrella or a Photek Softlighter. Set it up off camera at 45 degrees to the subject and go. Use a small radio or infra red transmitter to fire the strobe so no cables between the camera and strobe. Price is probably in the same range.

Softlighter: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...ughType=search

SP Excalibur: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...=14&Submit.y=4 (some of these are AC/DC, kits include stands and umbrellas, sometimes the battery is included as a freebie, check their ads).



John

[ellette]

I'm all for random thoughts, those are sometimes the most helpful!

The reason I was going to do the 550 is I think I'm going to start out with just a flash and the lightsphere and see how well that works. I figure most of my photography except for when I'm in the hospital will just be with the nicer of whatever two flashes I might get.

Originally Posted by JohnC

That seems like it will work. Here are some random things going through my mind as I read through...

Do you really need the 550? What about two Sunpaks or Vivitars? Some folks like Canon's eTTL, others hate it. And even though the peanut slave is designed to ignore the 550s preflash, I find a lot of subjects blink from the preflash and have their eyes closed in the actual shot. Might be easier to just have two non-eTTL flashes.

Yeah, it would cost more and I don't mind having to go manual for the photo shoots, kind of feel like it might give me a little more control you know? Though that is an idea.

Or maybe a 550 and a 420 so they can fire each other without wires or slaves and then maintain eTTL exposure control.* But that does cost more.

That was the idea, though the other reason I liked the idea of buying the set of umbrella stands, if I end up wanting to do the two flashes off camera I could I suppose. That or get a reflector to go on the other one.

They will be small rooms almost guaranted, hospital rooms usually are anyway. I am hoping that after I have been doing this for a while I can convince the hospitals to let me set up in maybe a conference room one or two days a week to give me more space though so I may to not always have to work in the patient's room.

Ok, I may be an idiot, but Arka suggested a Vivitar or two, and I could not find either on B&H (which is what I'm using to give myself a general idea of shopping expenses before I head out actually buying). I would like to go the most simple yet effective route and Vivitar seemed like it might be one less step, but for the life of me I couldn't find the ones suggested. : I did find one, but it was much more expensive than the sunpak and for $100.00 difference (minus whatever the cord is) I can handle an extra step and a cord.

Do you plan to have one flash on camera and one off? Might not need the umbrellas. I would try the Lightsphere on the on-camera flash and then point the other camera into a corner of the room for fill (I think you said these would be small rooms). Just need one light stand for that. And without the eTTL you might be able to use a different slave. Look at the Wein slaves that just mount to the hotshoe of the flash and don't need a cord. Or look at a Vivitar flash instead of the Sunpak that lets you connect the peanut directly to the flash.

I am tempted. What I'm going to have to do though is get FULLY comfortable with my lighting set-up before I head off to the hospitals for the real practice runs. I will be setting up an area at home that is small, and awkward to maneuver around in...sort of like shooting in an obstacle course. I want to be able to handle even the worst room and make it work. I have been wondering if just the lightsphere would work for much of the shooting. Only when I want a more specific light look (like strictly off to the side or something) would I absolutely HAVE to have the umbrella(s).

I'd be tempted to try some tests with only the Lightsphere if the rooms are small. If you are in close on your subjects I think it will work well.

Oooh...I was looking at the Softlighter! I was thinking I might end up getting one eventually along with the set-up I listed. I really liked the looks of that.

Something like this with an umbrella added to it, and then no regular flash?
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...ughType=search
If so, I have a couple problems. One, I'd only have the built in flash to work with. Though I'm buying MOSTLY to be able to photograph in the hospitals, I still need to be able to go out and shoot my own stuff as well since selling my work is what is going to be paying for me to be able to do the hospital work for free, until I have my hundreds of artist in my online gallery and can run entirely off commissions earned (fairly low commission, so I need lots of artists ). So, I really do need to have a flash since I can't reasonably cart around an excalibur with me when I go on a treck with my boys to the waterfalls or something. Also, something in the features of the one I linked to confuse me. It says "DC Power pack provides an average of 250 flashes per charge @ full power" which is great, but then down below it a couple lines it says "Uses standard household lightbulbs -- inexpensive and easy to find. Operates when using AC power only". So, does it work with the battery pack then? I'm very confused (ok, not hard to do to me, but there you go).

I haven't figured out what the cost would be if I used one of those along with say a 550 and a lightsphere and got a photek softlighter. I will have to do that tonight. I only get a limited amount of online (research) time during the day because I have to work around my kids and don't want to ignore them!

If I was doing this myself and wanted to use off-camera lights, I'd probably come at it differently. I'd look for one small portable strobe like an SP Excalibur or Alien Bee or some other small monolight with either a large umbrella or a Photek Softlighter. Set it up off camera at 45 degrees to the subject and go. Use a small radio or infra red transmitter to fire the strobe so no cables between the camera and strobe. Price is probably in the same range.

Softlighter: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...ughType=search

SP Excalibur: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...=14&Submit.y=4 (some of these are AC/DC, kits include stands and umbrellas, sometimes the battery is included as a freebie, check their ads).

Thank you so much John for your reply, it was informative and helpful and I really appreciate it! I have even more to look into tonight. Feel free to correct me if I'm understanding you wrong or offer more suggestions if any more random thoughts pop into your head.

Sara

[JDArt]

Am I correct to assume that you're setting up a studio situation in which you'll use portable flash units as the main lights?

If so, and you're using Canon, I would strongly recommend the 550ex or 580ex flashes, along with an ST-E2, since such a setup does provide you with a lighting solution that is wireless and that will therefore allow you to do many things you cannot do with full-sized studio strobes, which are bulkier, require electrical source, and are in many cases more expensive. I have both Hensel monolights and the portable flashes. I have to say that if I were doing it over again, I may start with the portable flash solution, along with stands and adapters that allow you to mount the portable flashes on stands and insert an umbrella, just as you can with traditional strobes.

The adapters I'm speaking of are mentioned in the last topic of this thread:

http://www.photocamel.com/index.php/topic,1492.0.html

[lordarka]

The reason you can't find the Vivitar 285 is because (I think), it's discontinued. That's a very old and very reliable thyristor flash design, but it looks like Vivitar finally threw in the towel on that model. Given the dearth of those things, I would suggest sticking with the Sunpak 383's as the next best solution.

Jay's suggestion of 550's and 580's would, of course, be the ultimate in automated setups; I just used 3 580's and 550 to shoot a chiropractor's office yesterday, and was thriled with the results. While I don't feel they are a suitable replacement for my studio strobes (Profotos), I was impressed by their overall performance. The problem is that they are very expensive, and for doing portraits, I still prefer to work with manual flashes and hand-metering where the light falls. When I had to do a quick family portrait of my client yesterday, I found myself often frustrated by the tendency of the ETTL system to try and render the faraway backdrop as a gray, instead of the black that I wanted. I don't know if you can 'spot meter' the ETTL flash metering system to compensate for that, but in the end, I just decided to light the scene with the ETTL flashes in manual mode, which is effectively the same as doing it with Sunpak flashes. Because you'll generally have a little more time to set up formal portraits, I don't think that manual flash is such a hindrance, and in the end, you get more control of your results. For that reason, and for reasons of cost, I think you are on a better off with the 'dumb' lights. If you ever decide you can afford ETTL flashes, you could always add them to your setup.


Best of luck!

Arka C.

[JohnC]

I have that exact set up. The strobe can be powered by AC or battery. If on battery you will get around 250 flashes before you have to recharge. And the modelling lamp will not work when on battery power. When on AC the modelling light works and you can keep flashing as long as you have a place to plug in.

As for the Sunpak, it should be an automatic flash and might work better than the 550 if the flash is going to be your main light source. The canon eTTL system is great for fill flash, but can be confusing when you want the flash to be your main light. With the Sunpak you put your camera on Manual and set the F/stop according to a chart/dial on the flash. Very easy to use and pretty consistent.

I didn't realize that Vivitar stopped selling the 283/285. I wonder if they are available from someone else. As I understand it, Vivitar isn't a manufacturer, they are an importer and distributer. I don't know who actually made their flashes (and lenses). But the Sunpak should work just as well. I mentioned the Vivitar because the peanut slave can plug directly into it.

I would definitely try the Lightsphere with a single flash before spending the rest of the money. But you still have to decide what that first flash is. As money is a concern, I'd go the Sunpak route first. Do you know if there might be an AC adapter available for that flash? I hate going through batteries.

There are folks (Joe McNally) doing great things with a bunch of dedicated flashes. But that is an expensive route to go.

Where are you located? Maybe there is someone locally who has some of this equipment and can talk to you and show you some of the options.

John

Originally Posted by ellette

Something like this with an umbrella added to it, and then no regular flash?*
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...ughType=search
If so, I have a couple problems.* One, I'd only have the built in flash to work with.* Though I'm buying MOSTLY to be able to photograph in the hospitals, I still need to be able to go out and shoot my own stuff as well since selling my work is what is going to be paying for me to be able to do the hospital work for free, until I have my hundreds of artist in my online gallery and can run entirely off commissions earned (fairly low commission, so I need lots of artists ).* So, I really do need to have a flash since I can't reasonably cart around an excalibur with me when I go on a treck with my boys to the waterfalls or something.* ** Also, something in the features of the one I linked to confuse me.* It says "DC Power pack provides an average of 250 flashes per charge @ full power" which is great, but then down below it a couple lines it says "Uses standard household lightbulbs -- inexpensive and easy to find.* Operates when using AC power only".* So, does it work with the battery pack then?* I'm very confused (ok, not hard to do to me, but there you go).*

[ellette]

See, I don't think I'm going to even TRY to do AC. Hospitals have to approve anything you might think about plugging into the wall every time you come there. That involves calling...umm, not IT, but whoever it is who checks stuff out. You would have to wait for them to show, check out your equipment, and then tell you that yes, you can plug it in and it won't make the whole hospital spontaneously combust or something. I'm just going to have to do batteries to save time and frustration.

Oh, I see...it is just the modeling light that doesn't work with the battery, thank you!

So you think I should switch, use the 550 for the side and the sunpak on the camera if I go that route?

Yeah, I had looked first at the Vivitar because I thought that would be more handy than having to buy a cable as well as the peanut.

Oh, and I'm in Oregon.

Sara

Originally Posted by JohnC

I have that exact set up. The strobe can be powered by AC or battery. If on battery you will get around 250 flashes before you have to recharge. And the modelling lamp will not work when on battery power. When on AC the modelling light works and you can keep flashing as long as you have a place to plug in.

As for the Sunpak, it should be an automatic flash and might work better than the 550 if the flash is going to be your main light source. The canon eTTL system is great for fill flash, but can be confusing when you want the flash to be your main light. With the Sunpak you put your camera on Manual and set the F/stop according to a chart/dial on the flash. Very easy to use and pretty consistent.

I didn't realize that Vivitar stopped selling the 283/285. I wonder if they are available from someone else. As I understand it, Vivitar isn't a manufacturer, they are an importer and distributer. I don't know who actually made their flashes (and lenses). But the Sunpak should work just as well. I mentioned the Vivitar because the peanut slave can plug directly into it.

I would definitely try the Lightsphere with a single flash before spending the rest of the money. But you still have to decide what that first flash is. As money is a concern, I'd go the Sunpak route first. Do you know if there might be an AC adapter available for that flash? I hate going through batteries.

There are folks (Joe McNally) doing great things with a bunch of dedicated flashes. But that is an expensive route to go.

Where are you located? Maybe there is someone locally who has some of this equipment and can talk to you and show you some of the options.

John

[ellette]

As is your usual...lots of helpful information. Thank you.

So, do you think like John does (though I may be mis-reading him, who knows) that I might even be better off with 2 sunpaks than one 550 and a sunpak? The vivitar being discontinued would explain why I can't find it. If I go with two sunpaks instead of 1 sunpak and 1 550 then I'd be more inclined to go ahead and get a lightmeter right off the bat.

Sara

Originally Posted by lordarka

The reason you can't find the Vivitar 285 is because (I think), it's discontinued. That's a very old and very reliable thyristor flash design, but it looks like Vivitar finally threw in the towel on that model. Given the dearth of those things, I would suggest sticking with the Sunpak 383's as the next best solution.

Jay's suggestion of 550's and 580's would, of course, be the ultimate in automated setups; I just used 3 580's and 550 to shoot a chiropractor's office yesterday, and was thriled with the results. While I don't feel they are a suitable replacement for my studio strobes (Profotos), I was impressed by their overall performance. The problem is that they are very expensive, and for doing portraits, I still prefer to work with manual flashes and hand-metering where the light falls. When I had to do a quick family portrait of my client yesterday, I found myself often frustrated by the tendency of the ETTL system to try and render the faraway backdrop as a gray, instead of the black that I wanted. I don't know if you can 'spot meter' the ETTL flash metering system to compensate for that, but in the end, I just decided to light the scene with the ETTL flashes in manual mode, which is effectively the same as doing it with Sunpak flashes. Because you'll generally have a little more time to set up formal portraits, I don't think that manual flash is such a hindrance, and in the end, you get more control of your results. For that reason, and for reasons of cost, I think you are on a better off with the 'dumb' lights. If you ever decide you can afford ETTL flashes, you could always add them to your setup.


Best of luck!

Arka C.

[ellette]

Yes, it is a portable studio I'll be taking into hospitals and I have been thinking that using just your basic flash units as the lights will be enough (small rooms obviously) and more portable and less expensive than other routes I might go.

I would love to do 2 550's and godness...2 580's would be great along with an ST-E2, but that is more than I would really like to spend. I could possibly swing it, but then it would be tight for quite some time and I might not be able to get some other things I may find I really need later. I'm trying to find something relatively easy to use and relatively inexpensive that will give nice enough results. The reason I first started looking at the basic flashes was because they are battery powered, and I just can't do the plug in type lighting in the hospitals.

What did you think of the first link I posted...I know nothing about impact stands, but it looked like it had everything but the flashes to make it work.

Sara

Originally Posted by Jay Dougherty

Am I correct to assume that you're setting up a studio situation in which you'll use portable flash units as the main lights?

If so, and you're using Canon, I would strongly recommend the 550ex or 580ex flashes, along with an ST-E2, since such a setup does provide you with a lighting solution that is wireless and that will therefore allow you to do many things you cannot do with full-sized studio strobes, which are bulkier, require electrical source, and are in many cases more expensive. I have both Hensel monolights and the portable flashes. I have to say that if I were doing it over again, I may start with the portable flash solution, along with stands and adapters that allow you to mount the portable flashes on stands and insert an umbrella, just as you can with traditional strobes.

The adapters I'm speaking of are mentioned in the last topic of this thread:

http://www.photocamel.com/index.php/topic,1492.0.html

[lordarka]

You’re not going to like hearing this, but I would not get a 550EX. If you are going to get any EX flash, just make the investment in the 580EX; it really is that much better than the 550EX, and if you ever use the 580, you’re going to wonder how you can live with the 550’s pokey recycle and poor ergonomics.

John’s suggestion to use multiple Sunpaks is definitely a good one, and the auto-flash lookup table for setting the power on the back of the flash is pretty good, You would need to assess how light modifiers like reflectors, diffusers, and the like would affect your light output from such flashes, so I would strongly recommend a light meter if you go that route. A Sekonic L-308 or L-358 should suffice. Of course, after you get the meter, you may not have saved much money over the ETTL route, but at least you’ll have a chance to really learn how to manage your lighting.

I am not a huge fan of studio strobe-sized lighting such as the excaliburs, as it becomes way too much to carry, and a pain to set up. Your concerns about AC power are also pretty important, and I much prefer to have a lightweight battery system anyway. Given the small sizes of the rooms you’ll be shooting in, the Sunpak 383’s, or EX flashes, should provide more than adequate lighting for what you want to do. The only question now is to figure out whether you want to do the lighting yourself, or get electronic flashes to do it for you.

One nice thing about getting at least one EX flash like the 580 is that you can basically shoot idiot-proof flash images without having to think too hard on your exposure. The 580 in concert with an ETTL2 camera like the 20D is a particularly effective combination that will deliver consistent flash exposure every time.

Arka C.

[JohnC]

If you are going to spend the money on a 550 or 580 it should be on the camera. Otherwise you are paying a lot of money for automation features that won't be used (unless you use an STE2 remote that adds even more money). One advantage to these flashes, though, is that you can get an external battery pack that will recyle faster and provide more flashes than just the internal AA batteries.

And yes, I was suggesting two Sunpaks instead of the 550. I don't know how well the 550's eTTL would work with the Sunpak added. The 550 would fire a preflash that the camera reads to set exposure. But for the actual exposure the other light would be firing, too. You might have to just set both flashes to manual, so why spend the money on the dedicated flash?

Or go the more expensive route and get multiple EOS flashes for full automation.

John

Originally Posted by ellette

So you think I should switch, use the 550 for the side and the sunpak on the camera if I go that route?*

Yeah, I had looked first at the Vivitar because I thought that would be more handy than having to buy a cable as well as the peanut.*

Oh, and I'm in Oregon.* *

Sara

[ellette]

Hmm, it doesn't make me terribly happy to hear that, but I'm not upset. The recycle time looks like it is about the same as the 383 (well, the 550 is a half second faster) so wouldn't it not make much difference when I'm using both and only if I'm using the one that I'd notice? The 580 is much faster than the 550, but if the sunpak is pokey is it going to hold me back? I can see getting the two 580's and being happy with the speed, but that I know I can't really do right now. I could get the 580 and then go without a light meter, or I can go with the 550 and a sunpak and get the light meter in a couple months (or maybe now, I'll have to see...come on rebate for Canon cameras...please hurry) or I could get the two sunpaks and get the light meter right away.

I truly like the idea of LEARNING how I'm lighting stuff. I don't want to be doing this and just going for automatic and blind luck, I want to know what I'm doing.

Ok, here is yet another way of me proving my lack of lighting knowledge. With the sunpaks, if I go the two of them route, how do they work on the camera? I'm assuming that the pre-flash is built into the camera so would the sunpak then fire when it gets the signal for the pre-flash and not be able to fire again (having to wait 8.5 seconds and all, which does actually seem like a long time)? Would I only ever be able to shoot fully manual if I was using the flash or would I be able to be lazy and put it in AV mode? I like doing that sometimes when I don't feel like paying attention to the shutter speed as much and want a break. Do they just manage to ignore the pre-flash then or how does that work? See, my thinking behind getting the 550 and the sunpak was that I'd have one Canon flash with about the same recycle time as the sunpak yet I could go ahead and be lazy sometimes and not have to worry about the exposure, yet I'd be getting the sunpak so I would have to learn it more when I was using both, and then when I am wealthy because I've found a winning lottery ticket on the ground somewhere (seeing as how I don't buy tickets ) I'd be able to upgrade and get a 580 and then use the 550 off camera and the 580 on camera and then eventually replace the 550 with either some other actual strobe or another 580.

Sara

Originally Posted by lordarka

You’re not going to like hearing this, but I would not get a 550EX. If you are going to get any EX flash, just make the investment in the 580EX; it really is that much better than the 550EX, and if you ever use the 580, you’re going to wonder how you can live with the 550’s pokey recycle and poor ergonomics.

John’s suggestion to use multiple Sunpaks is definitely a good one, and the auto-flash lookup table for setting the power on the back of the flash is pretty good, You would need to assess how light modifiers like reflectors, diffusers, and the like would affect your light output from such flashes, so I would strongly recommend a light meter if you go that route. A Sekonic L-308 or L-358 should suffice. Of course, after you get the meter, you may not have saved much money over the ETTL route, but at least you’ll have a chance to really learn how to manage your lighting.

I am not a huge fan of studio strobe-sized lighting such as the excaliburs, as it becomes way too much to carry, and a pain to set up. Your concerns about AC power are also pretty important, and I much prefer to have a lightweight battery system anyway. Given the small sizes of the rooms you’ll be shooting in, the Sunpak 383’s, or EX flashes, should provide more than adequate lighting for what you want to do. The only question now is to figure out whether you want to do the lighting yourself, or get electronic flashes to do it for you.

One nice thing about getting at least one EX flash like the 580 is that you can basically shoot idiot-proof flash images without having to think too hard on your exposure. The 580 in concert with an ETTL2 camera like the 20D is a particularly effective combination that will deliver consistent flash exposure every time.

Arka C.

[ellette]

See, that is what I thought, it kind of surprised me to think you were saying the other way round which is why I asked for clarification.

I figured that the 550 would be my stand alone flash for when I am not carting the umbrellas with me and am just out and about. Then, when I'm doing a photo shoot in the hospital I'd be working fully manual on the flashes. I'm looking at this as a starting point obviously, this won't be what I plan to use for the next 50 years if I live that long. With the one 550 I'd be getting a foot in the door for the E-ttl but would still not be spending as much as if I was getting two of them.

Am I making any sense or am I nuts?

Sara

Originally Posted by JohnC

If you are going to spend the money on a 550 or 580 it should be on the camera. Otherwise you are paying a lot of money for automation features that won't be used (unless you use an STE2 remote that adds even more money). One advantage to these flashes, though, is that you can get an external battery pack that will recyle faster and provide more flashes than just the internal AA batteries.

And yes, I was suggesting two Sunpaks instead of the 550. I don't know how well the 550's eTTL would work with the Sunpak added. The 550 would fire a preflash that the camera reads to set exposure. But for the actual exposure the other light would be firing, too. You might have to just set both flashes to manual, so why spend the money on the dedicated flash?

Or go the more expensive route and get multiple EOS flashes for full automation.

John

[Mr. Pickles]

I wouldn't use the Sunpak with the 550EX. I'd find the extra money and get a 420EX instead. KEH has an "excellent" used one for $139, so you're not talking a huge chunk of cash difference. I sold my Sunpak 383 for $70 awhile back.

The 550EX is gonna "talk" to the 420EX. I don't know about eTTL being a huge issue, but if it is on some shoot, you can switch it off and go the manual route anyway.

[JohnC]

The preflash is from the flash, not the camera, unless you are asking about the built-in flash on the camera. So if the Sunpak is on your camera hot shoe or is attached by a synch cable (or wireless remote) the preflash will not come into play. If you use the 550 or 580 you can put it on manual and that turns off the preflash. You can not turn off the preflash on the flash built into the camera.

I don't know if the recylce time will be a really big deal. It sounds like you will be in a situation where you will be taking time to compose and interact with the subjects. It won't be a fashion shoot where you are going for click, click, click, click. More like click, talk to the subject, click, move their arm, click, tilt your head this way, click, etc.

The bottom line is that yes, what you are proposing should be workable. Like everything else in photography, there are a dozen ways to approach it. Yours is as valid as most others.

John

[ellette]

Oh see, now you can tell how much I know about anything. I didn't know the flash itself was that intelligent I figured it was just doing what the camera was telling it to do and that the Sunpak didn't know how to listen correctly. So if I went with your idea of two 383's I wouldn't really lose anything other than the pre-flash not being able to help with getting the exposure right? Hmm...darn it all, when I think I have everything figured out helpful people always go and throw more information into the mix!

Thanks, at least I feel like I'm on the right track here (or a maybe...not THE right track as that denotes the only one) and that my ideas aren't totally and completely in left field. See, I'm sure it is sort of backwards and all, but I didn't want to get a book on lighting and how to do it till I knew how I was going to do it. Didn't want one that was talking about a bunch of stuff I wasn't going to use and had no way of understanding. I knew there were lots of people on here that were fantastic with lighting and figured I'm not so shy and self conscious I can't ask stupid questions and get answers specific to me.

I SO appreciate all the help and even once I do pick a lighting system for me I'm pretty sure I'll be asking lots of questions and posting lots of failed attempts before I get the hang of lighting.

Sara

Originally Posted by JohnC

The preflash is from the flash, not the camera, unless you are asking about the built-in flash on the camera. So if the Sunpak is on your camera hot shoe or is attached by a synch cable (or wireless remote) the preflash will not come into play. If you use the 550 or 580 you can put it on manual and that turns off the preflash.* You can not turn off the preflash on the flash built into the camera.

I don't know if the recylce time will be a really big deal. It sounds like you will be in a situation where you will be taking time to compose and interact with the subjects. It won't be a fashion shoot where you are going for click, click, click, click. More like click, talk to the subject, click, move their arm, click, tilt your head this way, click, etc.

The bottom line is that yes, what you are proposing should be workable. Like everything else in photography, there are a dozen ways to approach it. Yours is as valid as most others.

John

[mikej]

Be careful of information overload. I didn't read every word of all the messages, but it sure sounds to me like everything you are being told is making it way more complicated than it has to be. It sounds like you are trying to get a whole production outfit into a small room with a bunch of other equipment already in there taking up room. And how many pictures are you going to take anyway? I suspect you won't be taking more than a dozen or so picture of any one person over a short period of time. So you want something you can get in, evaluate the best angles while you are talking with the patient and getting them comfortable with you, probably taking your pictures while you are talking so they stay relaxed.

A lot of people do excellent work with a single 550 (and now the 580) flash with a omni bounce or other light diffuser on it. Most hospital walls are white so you are going to get a lot of reflected light, which will help fill in shadows. At most you are only going to need one small flash to help fill in shadows, which can be set off with it's own slave sensor. You can find the Vivitar 285 HV flashes (Adorama has them listed on Amazon.com for $150) if you look around. I've never used the Sunpaks but I do know people that have tried them and haven't been all that satisfied with how they work with their Canon cameras. The only way they found to get consistant results was in manual mode.

The only way you are going to know what works for you in ALL of the different conditions you are going to find yourself is to test test test. Although you would probably like to have everything, after you have tested and shot for a bit, you will have a better idea of what you want and what will work for you. So you might be better off to buy the minimum up front and use it for awhile and then go from there.

But from what I'm reading, you are going to end up being like the pack mule loaded down that goes into a phone booth to change her shoes.

Mike

[ellette]

Hehe...sometimes I feel like just the fact that I'm going to be going digital is approaching on information overload!

What I want to start out with is only 1 flash and the lightsphere so I can see if that works. The thing for me is though, I'm anal retentive in some things and like to be completely prepared ahead of time. So, if it turns out that the flash and lightsphere isn't going to be enough to give me good pictures, I don't want to have gotten a flash that is not going to work with my camera. It is good to hear that there are people who have been unhappy with the sunpaks (though I'm sure there are some who are fine) and had to ONLY use them in manual mode, that makes me lean more toward starting with the Canon flash (550 or 580) and the lightsphers. The thing is though, I have to keep such a strict eye on my budget that I need to have everything planned in my head for any events that may happen.

Most hospitals tend to paint the childrens' rooms in interesting colours, though they will still be bright they likely won't be white. Also, I am hoping to eventually be able to get a conference room once or twice a week where I can in essence have more space to set up a regular studio. I hope to take more than a dozen shots because I want to take whatever the family wants, ones of just the child, the child with siblings, the child with parents, and then whole huge group sessions with any and every family member that can show up on that day. It really will depend on the child though, if they start wearing out I will either go home and come back later or I may even just hang out at the hospital while the child takes a nap...I (anal retentive over planner me ) am just going to have to be eternally flexible. I don't mind the idea of going manual mode if the sunpak is off to the side, I like having to actually learn my lighting, but I would like the freedom to be lazy with whatever flash I have on my camera when that is all I'm using.

I think part of me is also scared to feel as if I have jilted the first families I photograph. I don't want to look back and think "wow, those were horrible I wish I'd used ____ lighting". These may be the last nice pictures these families ever have of their child, I don't want to screw it up.

Hehe...I love your analogy, very descriptive. You may be right though I am trying to keep it at a minimum...really I am. If I was going all hog wild I'd have a hair light, a softbox, and oodles of other stuff that I'd need several assistants to help with. I do think I'll probably go ahead and start out with the single canon flash and the lightsphere and then add in the other stuff as I continue buying over the next few months. My hope is to eventually be able to do some work out of my house...maybe have the families come over for an "after" shot or two when the child has recovered (hopefully every single one will though I'd rather they just didn't get cancer in the first place!), so since I plan to use a larger room in the hospitals at some point, and in my own house I do feel I will certainly need more than just the single flash/diffuser.

Thank you, I am finding SO much helpful information from so many different points of view and I greatly appreciate you adding yours. I feel the information overload, but I think wading through it all can only help me to be more prepared and more certain with whatever the heck my final decision ends up being.

Sara

Originally Posted by Mike Jordan

* Be careful of information overload.* I didn't read every word of all the messages, but it sure sounds to me like everything you are being told is making it way more complicated than it has to be.* It sounds like you are trying to get a whole production outfit into a small room with a bunch of other equipment already in there taking up room.* And how many pictures are you going to take anyway? I suspect you won't be taking more than a dozen or so picture of any one person over a short period of time.* So you want something you can get in, evaluate the best angles while you are talking with the patient and getting them comfortable with you, probably taking your pictures while you are talking so they stay relaxed.

* A lot of people do excellent work with a single 550 (and now the 580) flash with a omni bounce or other light diffuser on it.* Most hospital walls are white so you are going to get a lot of reflected light, which will help fill in shadows.* At most you are only going to need one small flash to help fill in shadows, which can be set off with it's own slave sensor.* You can find the Vivitar 285 HV flashes (Adorama has them listed on Amazon.com for $150) if you look around.* I've never used the Sunpaks but I do know people that have tried them and haven't been all that satisfied with how they work with their Canon cameras.* The only way they found to get consistant results was in manual mode.*

* The only way you are going to know what works for you in ALL of the different conditions you are going to find yourself is to test test test.* Although you would probably like to have everything, after* you have tested and shot for a bit, you will have a better idea of what you want and what will work for you. So you might be better off to buy the minimum up front and use it for awhile and then go from there.

* But from what I'm reading, you are going to end up being like the pack mule loaded down that goes into a phone booth to change her shoes.*

Mike

[Mr. Pickles]

Just go to this site, and read till your tired of reading. Alot of questions about using flash with the Canon will be answered....

http://photonotes.org/articles/eos-flash/

[ellette]

Thank you, I'll go check it out! It takes a lot to make me tired of reading but I'll see if I can manage it.

Sara

Originally Posted by Mr. Pickles

Just go to this site, and read till your tired of reading. Alot of questions about using flash with the Canon will be answered....

http://photonotes.org/articles/eos-flash/