Flash - what is recommended with fast refreshing

[Happylady29]

I am looking for a decent flash unit, that isn't going to cost me a mint, that has a fast refresh value. Most I look at say 3 secs, are there any others that are faster? I have a Canon EOS 5D Mk2. Thanks in advance for your input. Catherine

[Bobby Deal]

Originally Posted by Happylady29

I am looking for a decent flash unit, that isn't going to cost me a mint, that has a fast refresh value. Most I look at say 3 secs, are there any others that are faster? I have a Canon EOS 5D Mk2. Thanks in advance for your input. Catherine

Define flash, are you looking for a studio moonlight strob or a speed light. If you want a either way most will need a couple seconds refresh at full power and will get faster as output level is decreased.

Faster refresh rates require more expensive components and circuitry thus the higher price. Unless you have a need shooting multi frame stop action at full power I have to wonder why a faster refresh rate is needed. Truth is 3 seconds is not very long. If you are shooting people and feel the need to shoot more then 20 frames a minute then I have to wonder how much attention to detail, lighting, framing and overall composition you can be putting into the shot.

[zemlin]

I have PCB Einstein monolights. I used one at partial power (don't remember the setting) when shooting hummingbirds. I was able to get short bursts at 7 FPS and there are Youtube demos showing them keeping up at 10 FPS - not at full power, of course.

[photolando]

It really helps if you mention what you want to shoot. Needing fast recharge is not a problem if your using the flash unit at lower settings. If your outside, you may not need full power. Just about any unit will recharge fast-er at 1/2, 1/4, 1/8 settings.

Adjusting ISO (higher) or aperture (wider) may help to use lower flash powers. If you need full power at f/11. You will only need 1/2 power at f/8. or 1/4 power at f/5.6. 1/4 power recharge is pretty much instant in most units.

Also, if you use a hotshoe flash unit, using something like Enloop or Powerex batteries will recharge your unit faster than most alkaline batteries will. And perhaps last longer. When I use my flash at 1/2 power with them it's pretty much instant. At least for two fast shots in a row. Three or more, not so much.

You don't want to be shooting full blast for too many shots in a row anyway. It will fry your unit. Or it will shut down before it does.

[jerryph]

When people say they want a fast refresh rate, and ask about nothing more, that is a sign of some lack in basic understanding of how a speedlight works.

A speedlight at minimal power recycles fast... VERY fast and the duration of that light source is also very short and quick.

The more you increase the power setting of that flash, the longer time it takes to recycle that flash, the more light is released and of course, the longer it takes to recycle.

In the world of speedlights, one can kinda cheat a little and use an external battery pack that reduces recycle times from 3 seconds to 1.5 seconds, but used unwisely, those can easily aid in burning out a speedlight because they are not made to be run continuously at full power with pops at 1.5 seconds apart... heck, they're not made to be machine-gunned at 3 seconds apart!

Now... here we have someone that says that 3 second recycle times is too long, but is it really? To make a proper decision, one needs to know a few things.

- Are you ALWAYS going to be shooting at maximum power, forcing you to live with 3 or more second recycle times? If not, as we now know, shooting at lower power levels recycle times drop drastically.

- Do you absolutely require portability? Are you going to be carrying that light source whole days or long distances? If not, maybe a speedlight is not for you, maybe you would do better with a studio head that you plug in to a wall socket or to a battery pack. Studio heads are WAY more powerful, perhaps answering your lighting needs at a fraction of a studio head's full power, providing you with faster recycle times and longer shooting durations.

- How many times per minute are you going to shoot? This is important because most speedlights are not designed to be machine gunned when at full power, they will burn out and damage themselves in a remarkably short time (it only took me 15 seconds to kill a speedlight once!).

Here comes a point... power costs money. More power costs MORE money. More features cost MORE money too. If you need a portable light source that fires at a higher power level relative to other speedlights, that means a few things... mostly, an increase in size, weight and a big increase in money. Like anything else in life, there are no free lunches.

As the saying goes... you can pick only 2 of the 3... good/reliable - cheap - powerful.

Your cheap lights msy be good, but not powerful... or they could be powerful and good, but not cheap or cheap and powerful, but not very good, and those die early on or give crap performance from day 1.

There are other solutions too. Using myself as an example, I wanted something much stronger than a single GOOD speedlight. I also wanted all the bells and whistles. I also wanted portability and I needed something that let me have thousands of pops of light on a single charge.

My solution was to add more high end speedlights.



Cost was very high. Though the photo above shows 2 SB-900s and 2 SB-600s, today I have a similar design using four SB-900's and a single SB-800 and 5 FlexTT5 transceivers. What is not showing in the photo is that I also have 5 external battery packs that I can use with these flashes.

I have the best of all worlds for my needs... a portable TTL solution that offers me a little more than 2 full stops over a single speedlight. It is portable, it can overpower the sun easily enough, requires no power outlet, and with the external battery packs, recycle times are for all intents and purposes instant at all power settings of 1/2 or less and 1.5 seconds if all 5 flashes are at full power. If I place these flashes at 1/4 power, they are a little stronger than a single flash at full power and because at 1/4 power, no flash is really stressed, I can not only shoot all day without worry of burning it out, thanks to the battery packs, I can shoot pretty much 3000+ photos a day on a single set of batteries (which if you consider 12 batteries per flash, is still 48 batteries, but I don't have to change them out during any event and that is a single set... lol).

This setup has the most options (remote power control, manual, iTTL), it has the most power (not only can I fire 4 flashes at full power, thanks to the top of the line triggers, I can shoot at ANY shutter speed very effectively, thanks to HyperSync). It is portable, of course, and I can carry it all easily enough all day without much effort, though it is heavier than a single flash without an external battery pack, it's nowhere near as heavy as a studio head and large battery pack (which I also own, for the times when nothing less than maximum power is needed).

This setup does more than any studio head can do, but here is the catch... it's also a lot more money. We're looking at ~ $2500 for the flashes and add almost another $1200 for the triggers. One can get a single studio head for way less, but it could not do as many of the things this setup could do (like ease of portability, TTL and high speed sync and 3000+ flashes on a single charge).

So... all that said... what are your needs? There is a LOT more to flashes than recycle times, and all that info is just as important.

[Michael Rose]

Originally Posted by jerryph

- Do you absolutely require portability? Are you going to be carrying that light source whole days or long distances? If not, maybe a speedlight is not for you, maybe you would do better with a studio head that you plug in to a wall socket or to a battery pack. Studio heads are WAY more powerful, perhaps answering your lighting needs at a fraction of a studio head's full power, providing you with faster recycle times and longer shooting durations.

- How many times per minute are you going to shoot?




... today I have a similar design using four SB-900's and a single SB-800 and 5 FlexTT5 transceivers. What is not showing in the photo is that I also have 5 external battery packs that I can use with these flashes.

I have the best of all worlds for my needs... a portable TTL solution that offers me a little more than 2 full stops over a single speedlight.

If I place these flashes at 1/4 power, they are a little stronger than a single flash at full power and because at 1/4 power, no flash is really stressed, I can not only shoot all day without worry of burning it out, thanks to the battery packs, I can shoot pretty much 3000+ photos a day on a single set of batteries ...

I assumed that one SB-900 is approximatley 100 WS...

This setup has the most options (remote power control, manual, iTTL),
it has the most power (not only can I fire 4 flashes at full power,

[Einstein E640 has 640 WS versus 400 WS = 4*SB-900s]

thanks to the top of the line triggers, I can shoot at ANY shutter speed very effectively, thanks to HyperSync).

... it's nowhere near as heavy as a studio head and large battery pack (which I also own, for the times when nothing less than maximum power is needed).

How much does your studio head and large battery pack weigh?
How many Ws of power does it have?
What's the capacity of the battery pack?

This setup does more than any studio head can do, but here is the catch... it's also a lot more money. We're looking at ~ $2500 for the flashes and add almost another $1200 for the triggers.

One can get a single studio head for way less, but it could not do as many of the things this setup could do [like:]

• 1. like ease of portability,
     Einstein E640 Flash Unit | Price: $499.95
     4 pounds, 5 ounces (without the power cord)
     7" height x 5.4" width x 7.8" length
     (overall dimensions with lamp, tube, dome and shipping cover
     as well as mounting hardware)
     Vagabond Mini™ Lithium - 120VAC model | Price: $239.95
     3.5 pounds total weight (total system, including battery and inverter)
     2.75” x 4.3” x 7.8” including battery, latch and power switch protrusions
     (7 pounds, 13 ounces total weight of Flash Unit & Battery)
  2. TTL,
     Nice TTL-like features that in some cases might make up for the lack of actuall TTL functionallity?
     ZoneControl: Use the AC3 ZoneController to control up to three zones of light with as many lights in each zone as you want. Designate either A-B-C zones via the User Interface on the Einstein E640 Flash. Channel "D" is also available when receiving on a MultiMAX channel.
     PowerTracking: In Auto Mode, change ISO, aperture, or FEC and the lights automatically adjust their compensating power setting with PocketWizard PowerTracking. Set your AC3 ZoneController to manual and PowerTracking is turned off for absolute manual control. PowerTracking can be customized via the PocketWizard Utility.
  3. high speed sync, and
     PocketWizard® PowerMC2 | Price: $99.95
     The PowerMC2 is a product designed and manufactured by LPA Design. The PowerMC2 Transceiver Module enables remote power control of Einstein™ flashes using PocketWizard® ControlTL® technology. With a MiniTT1® Transmitter or FlexTT5® Transceiver on your camera and a PowerMC2 plugged into your Einstein™ E640 flash, you can adjust the flash power settings directly from the camera position.
     [You can] utilize PocketWizard’s unique features such as HyperSync to increase your maximum x-sync speed and Optimized Rear Curtain Sync to create natural looking movement in your images.
  4. 3000+ flashes on a single charge
     Specifications for Vagabond Mini™ Lithium - 120VAC model from the PCB web site.
     
     typically 400 to 500 shots per charge with 640 total Ws connected.
     recycles 160 Ws in approx. 0.75 seconds.
     
     My linear calculations assuming 100 Ws connected and actually used by an Einstein E640.
     
     Approximately 2,560 (400*6.4) to 3,200 (500*6.4) shots per charge with (6.4 = 640/100) 100 total Ws connected.

Total Price $839.85 for an Einstein E640, Mini Lithium Battery, & PocketWizard® PowerMC2-- yes, this is quite a bit less than your
stated $3,700 plus 48 rechargeable AA Batteries, Holders, Cables and Battery Chargers.



This whole exercise is one of curiosity, because I am thinking of getting a few more speedlights and making a rig something like yours, so I would greatly appreciate if you would supply the following information for comparison purposes:

• Dimensions of all the SB-900's as pictured,
• Weight of all the SB-900's as pictured,
• Weight of the 48 rechargeable AA Batteries, Holders, & Cables,
• Cost of the 48 rechargeable AA Batteries, Holders, & Cables,
• Weight of the AA Battery Chargers (The Mini Lithium's charger is built-in)
• Cost of the AA Battery Chargers (The Mini Lithium's charger is built-in)

On the surface, with what little information I have, I seems like the lack of TTL is the overwhelming factor in favor of your speedlights-- but that's the problem, I need more data to know wether that even close to being correct!

Respectfully,
Michael Rose in Columbia, Maryland

[Happylady29]

Originally Posted by Bobby Deal

Define flash, are you looking for a studio moonlight strob or a speed light. If you want a either way most will need a couple seconds refresh at full power and will get faster as output level is decreased.

Faster refresh rates require more expensive components and circuitry thus the higher price. Unless you have a need shooting multi frame stop action at full power I have to wonder why a faster refresh rate is needed. Truth is 3 seconds is not very long. If you are shooting people and feel the need to shoot more then 20 frames a minute then I have to wonder how much attention to detail, lighting, framing and overall composition you can be putting into the shot.

I was wanting to do drops and smoke and such hence the faster refresh rate. I understand that 3 secs isn't slow but one of my collegues witha Nikon was shooting something close to 20 frames per second and his flash worked everytime!

[Happylady29]

Originally Posted by zemlin

I have PCB Einstein monolights. I used one at partial power (don't remember the setting) when shooting hummingbirds. I was able to get short bursts at 7 FPS and there are Youtube demos showing them keeping up at 10 FPS - not at full power, of course.

thanks

[Happylady29]

Originally Posted by photolando

It really helps if you mention what you want to shoot. Needing fast recharge is not a problem if your using the flash unit at lower settings. If your outside, you may not need full power. Just about any unit will recharge fast-er at 1/2, 1/4, 1/8 settings.

Adjusting ISO (higher) or aperture (wider) may help to use lower flash powers. If you need full power at f/11. You will only need 1/2 power at f/8. or 1/4 power at f/5.6. 1/4 power recharge is pretty much instant in most units.

Also, if you use a hotshoe flash unit, using something like Enloop or Powerex batteries will recharge your unit faster than most alkaline batteries will. And perhaps last longer. When I use my flash at 1/2 power with them it's pretty much instant. At least for two fast shots in a row. Three or more, not so much.

You don't want to be shooting full blast for too many shots in a row anyway. It will fry your unit. Or it will shut down before it does.

excellent, thank you

[Happylady29]

Originally Posted by jerryph

When people say they want a fast refresh rate, and ask about nothing more, that is a sign of some lack in basic understanding of how a speedlight works.

A speedlight at minimal power recycles fast... VERY fast and the duration of that light source is also very short and quick.

The more you increase the power setting of that flash, the longer time it takes to recycle that flash, the more light is released and of course, the longer it takes to recycle.

In the world of speedlights, one can kinda cheat a little and use an external battery pack that reduces recycle times from 3 seconds to 1.5 seconds, but used unwisely, those can easily aid in burning out a speedlight because they are not made to be run continuously at full power with pops at 1.5 seconds apart... heck, they're not made to be machine-gunned at 3 seconds apart!

Now... here we have someone that says that 3 second recycle times is too long, but is it really? To make a proper decision, one needs to know a few things.

- Are you ALWAYS going to be shooting at maximum power, forcing you to live with 3 or more second recycle times? If not, as we now know, shooting at lower power levels recycle times drop drastically.

- Do you absolutely require portability? Are you going to be carrying that light source whole days or long distances? If not, maybe a speedlight is not for you, maybe you would do better with a studio head that you plug in to a wall socket or to a battery pack. Studio heads are WAY more powerful, perhaps answering your lighting needs at a fraction of a studio head's full power, providing you with faster recycle times and longer shooting durations.

- How many times per minute are you going to shoot? This is important because most speedlights are not designed to be machine gunned when at full power, they will burn out and damage themselves in a remarkably short time (it only took me 15 seconds to kill a speedlight once!).

Here comes a point... power costs money. More power costs MORE money. More features cost MORE money too. If you need a portable light source that fires at a higher power level relative to other speedlights, that means a few things... mostly, an increase in size, weight and a big increase in money. Like anything else in life, there are no free lunches.

As the saying goes... you can pick only 2 of the 3... good/reliable - cheap - powerful.

Your cheap lights msy be good, but not powerful... or they could be powerful and good, but not cheap or cheap and powerful, but not very good, and those die early on or give crap performance from day 1.

There are other solutions too. Using myself as an example, I wanted something much stronger than a single GOOD speedlight. I also wanted all the bells and whistles. I also wanted portability and I needed something that let me have thousands of pops of light on a single charge.

My solution was to add more high end speedlights.



Cost was very high. Though the photo above shows 2 SB-900s and 2 SB-600s, today I have a similar design using four SB-900's and a single SB-800 and 5 FlexTT5 transceivers. What is not showing in the photo is that I also have 5 external battery packs that I can use with these flashes.

I have the best of all worlds for my needs... a portable TTL solution that offers me a little more than 2 full stops over a single speedlight. It is portable, it can overpower the sun easily enough, requires no power outlet, and with the external battery packs, recycle times are for all intents and purposes instant at all power settings of 1/2 or less and 1.5 seconds if all 5 flashes are at full power. If I place these flashes at 1/4 power, they are a little stronger than a single flash at full power and because at 1/4 power, no flash is really stressed, I can not only shoot all day without worry of burning it out, thanks to the battery packs, I can shoot pretty much 3000+ photos a day on a single set of batteries (which if you consider 12 batteries per flash, is still 48 batteries, but I don't have to change them out during any event and that is a single set... lol).

This setup has the most options (remote power control, manual, iTTL), it has the most power (not only can I fire 4 flashes at full power, thanks to the top of the line triggers, I can shoot at ANY shutter speed very effectively, thanks to HyperSync). It is portable, of course, and I can carry it all easily enough all day without much effort, though it is heavier than a single flash without an external battery pack, it's nowhere near as heavy as a studio head and large battery pack (which I also own, for the times when nothing less than maximum power is needed).

This setup does more than any studio head can do, but here is the catch... it's also a lot more money. We're looking at ~ $2500 for the flashes and add almost another $1200 for the triggers. One can get a single studio head for way less, but it could not do as many of the things this setup could do (like ease of portability, TTL and high speed sync and 3000+ flashes on a single charge).

So... all that said... what are your needs? There is a LOT more to flashes than recycle times, and all that info is just as important.

What a great reply = yes I am a novice with flashes. I recieved a really cheap flash with my camera, from the states, and now must upgrade, grrrr. As I said above I am enjoying fast shutter speed photography and borrowed a collegues flash to obtain the enclosed photo (my flash wouldn't even fire properly). Hence the reason I wanted to know what would be a good flash unit. Yongnuo YN-560 II YN560II Flash Speedlite This unit, though cheap, appears similar to the Canon speedlite and as I am learning was hoping it would suffice until I could save for a real one!