Advice on saving pictures in PSE 5

[KATHY H]

I'd like to know how you all save your pics on your computer, what file format do you use? I shoot RAW mostly and the files range from 8 to 12 mgs approx. What I have been doing is opening them in ACR and then editing in PSE5, then I save the finished edit as a Jpeg but I'm concerned about how much damage is being done by opening and closing the Jpegs (how much detail is being lost). Of course I do save the original RAW file but if I've done any extensive editing I don't want to end up having to redo it. Would it be better to save the finished file in Tiff or PSD or something? If I do that can I print directly from that file (either myself or sending to an online printer?) I have plenty of storage space because I picked up and external hd and I can always get another if I need to. I would really appreciate hearing what method you all use?
Thanks.

[Goofup]

Let me answer a couple of your questions and I'll let others answer the rest.

1- ACR and raw. ACR is great, but while it doesn't modify your original raw file directly, if you make any changes and hit Done (not Save), you'll have to delete the .xmp file to get back to the untouched original.

2- if you want to save your PP'd image, layers and all, so you can work on it later or jsut to save it, save it in PSD format. When you're done messing with it, convert it to jpeg... but don't be surprised if you need to so some final teaking to bring it up to speed after the conversion. (No different than "bringing it up to speed" after resizing). Personally, if I know it's gonna be for the web or end up as a jpeg, I convert it to web size (if needed) and convert to jpeg right away. That way I know exactly what I got and what to work with from the very beginning.

3- Ah, the same ole "jpeg is lossy, detail is lost" thing. Yes, jpeg is lossy. Yes, you loss detail. Yes, only you can tell- and at the pixel-peeping level. Yes, all those beautiful raw shots you see on the web?---- they're jpegs. Yes, raw is better than jpeg- not saying it isn't. Yes, how good a raw shot ends up being depends on your post processing skill.

But the raw vs jpeg debate has been going on for years and I won't get into that. What I did want to do is clear up any misunderstanding about jpeg being lossy. The answer is "yes and no".

Scenerio 1: You take a jpeg, open it, work on it, save it, close it, open it again, work on it, save it, close it, repeat over and over. You can get away with this a few (1-5) times with out any detectable change, but after that she'll start to turn to garbage even at the highest compression setting. What's happening is you compress it the first save, re-compress the second save, re-re-compress the third save, etc.

Scenerio 2: You take a jpeg, open it, work on it, save it, keep it open, work on it some more, save it, keep it open, work on it, etc., etc.. Completely different story. Since you never closed the original in memory, the picture is only being compressed once no matter how many times you save it. You can save it a 100 times and #100 will look just as good as #1. So my rule of thumb is: I always do all my editing on a jpeg in one session. That way you don't have to worry at all about the "lossy" thing. (If you do have to split the editing session up because of time constraints, save it as a PSD or TIFF in the meantime).

Oh, and welcome to the Camel!

[craftysnapper]

Originally Posted by KATHY H

I save the finished edit as a Jpeg but I'm concerned about how much damage is being done by opening and closing the Jpegs (how much detail is being lost).

No damge is done just by opening and closing it, it is only when you resave it as already mentioned.

My own personel workflow is to convert from raw and edit in PSD file format in Elements 5 then do a final save as jpeg level 12 when I have completely finished working on the image, then delete the psd file. Others milage will differ.

Originally Posted by Goofup

1- ACR and raw. ACR is great, but it modifies your original raw file. If you want to keep your original raw "original", make a copy of it and then pull that one it into ACR.

Can you explain how ACR it modifies the original raw file as all it does to my knowledge is to store a written file in its database (or a xmp file) telling elements what conversion edits to apply next time it opens that image and this can be deleted simply by telling ACR to revert to the original shot setting and the Original raw file itself is never physicaly modified at anytime!

[Goofup]

From the Elements manual in black, my notes in red:

Do one of the following:

• To open a copy of the camera raw image file (with the Camera Raw settings applied) in Photoshop Elements, click Open. You can edit the image and save it in a Photoshop Elements-supported format. The original camera raw file remains unaltered. Note that you have to save it in another format, not raw. i have ACR 4.3 and there is no "revert" option/button. The little jpeg preview isn't changed, but the raw file itself inbeds the changes and can't be undone. Also, once pulled into Elements, with or without changes, you don't have the option of saving it back in raw. Also note the first sentence!
• To save the adjustments to a DNG file, click Save Image. See above.
• To cancel the adjustments and close the dialog box, click Cancel. No changes are made to the original alright, but no changes are made period.
  Note: The Digital Negative (DNG) format is Adobe’s proposed standard format for camera raw files. DNG files are useful for archiving camera raw images because they contain the raw camera sensor data and data specifying how the image should look. Camera Raw image settings can be stored in DNG files instead of in sidecar XMP files or the Camera Raw database. My bold.
  

I know it's confusing, but I messed with it for half an hour and I can't figure how to keep the original "original" unless you work on a copy. As far as I can tell once you pull it into ACR, that's it, you're stuck, except for Canceling. But hey, the file size stays the same!

[jfrancho]

ACR in Photoshop saves all settings in the centralized cache or in a sidecar XMP file. It makes no changes to the raw file.

[Goofup]

AHHH!
* If you open a raw file, make a change, hit Done (not Save), the changes are saved in the .xmp file. If you open it again, the changes are read from the .xmp file and applied. You can get back to the original raw IF you delete the .xmp file.
* if you open a raw file, make a change and hit Save, it will save it as a DNG file, but the original is untouched. Ok.
* If you open a raw file, make a change, then immediately open it in Elements, make no change but to save it as a PSD or something, the original raw isn't changed, BUT to get back to it you have to delete that automatically-made xmp file again.

So, once again I goofed up. You're right, the original raw is never really altered, but, of course, the Adobe instructions never say to get back to the original you have to delete the xmp file... or that that's the only way to do it. Since I very, very rarely work with raw files, I plead ignorance of first hand knowledge and relied on what I had "heard".

Hope we didn't confuse poor Kathy with all the sidetracking...

[jfrancho]

There are no "original" settings, only the defaults left at installation or set up by the user. Photoshop does not render the raw image "As shot" like Canon's DPP would read a .cr2 file "As Shot" interpreting the in camera parameters or Picture Style. The same would hold true for any other proprietary in camera processing. There are however other converters out there that will read the in camera settings.

Remember, a raw file is a collection of linear luminance data. It is when the converter describes the curve and applies RGB color information based on white points that the file becomes a displayable, non linear image file. Most raw files from the camera come with metadata that contain instructions for the raw converter to produce a file that is similar to what the camera displays on the camera's LCD. Photoshop notoriously does not read that descriptive data. I actually like this, since I use "flat settings" in ACR, and build the image to my preference. This is my default ACR "recipe":

Exposure: 0
Shadows: 0
Brightness: 50
Contrast: 25
Saturation: 0
Curve: Linear

[craftysnapper]

Originally Posted by Goofup

AHHH!
So, once again I goofed up. You're right, the original raw is never really altered,.

So that how you got you avitar name

Guess we all could use that name at some time or another, don't worry about it.