tilt...shift

[Athena]

I've been toying with the idea of buying a T/s lens for some time now. Not sure exactly which one. If YOU were buying a Canon T/S lens, which one would YOU get and why?

[Athena]

and if your primary reason to buy it is for taking environmental shots indoors, would you rather get a wide angle lens and deal with the distortion?

[JDArt]

I had the 90 T/S. Fantastic lens. I bought it because it seemed to me the most versatile: people pics as well as macro (nature). Ended up selling it because it fell victim to my "use it or lose it" rule. Really nice, sharp lens, though. Manual focus, however!

[Max@Home]

...if I would buy one, indoor/architecture would be it's primary use: so *my* choice would be the widest available: the TS-E 24mm F3.5L...

...but absolutely not in a hurry , 135F2.0L, 35F1.4L and 24-105F4L IS are much higher on my wishlist

...€0.02...

Kindest regards!

Max@Home

[Rense]

I have the 24mm T/S exactly for the reasons Max mentioned.

A nice writeup on T/S lenses is here

OT1: Max why do you want a 35 1.4 ?
OT2: My wishlist: 135 2.0 / 50 1.0 / 85 1.2 for Canon lenses
OT3: My wishlist for T/S lenses:
Hartblei Superrotator Carl Zeiss Distagon T* IF 1:4.0 40 mm
Hartblei Superrotator Carl Zeiss Planar T* 1:2.8 80 mm
Hartblei Superrotator Carl Zeiss Makro-Planar T* 1:4.0 120 mm

[dougsmit]

My answer is that T/S was wonderful for film but has become less necessary in digital. If the purpose is 'environmental indoors' I'd have to ask if 24mm is wide enough to do the job. I looked into the T/S question a while back and decided that, for me, the need did not justify the cost. I liked the concept of the Hartblei Super Rotators but was not sure I had the need for the focal lengths they came in. After playing with the distortion controls available in postprocessing, I decided not to spend the money.

There are two reasons to use a T/S lens. One is for focus control and the other is distortion control. For most of my uses, focus control is provided by focus stacking using CombineZM freeware. It assumes no subject movement between shots so I do not have any idea how Athena can do a self-portrait series using focus stacking. For distortion control, the Elements built ins (Transform/distort or others) work to my satisfaction. I twist a lot of my shots with the 12mm lens to cover the fact that I forgot to keep the camera parallel. For example:

This is a terrible grab shot of the Kindergarten field trip when the guys discovered the pythons had eggs. You can see my reflection in the glass and the angle was picked so the eggs could be seen in the space next to my grandson (left). From my angle in the reflection you can tell the distortions were manipulated (or I would need to be shown square on to the glass). I had exactly a fraction of a second to take the snap and worried about technical matters later. A t/s lens could have kept the lines straight from the start but might have taken a few seconds to set up. Shooting straight into the glass would have given a glare that would wreck the scene inside the box. I wish I had a good example shot but you get what there is this week.

Shift lenses allow shooting with the camera straight and parallel even when the camera is pointed up and angled. You might use a 24mm T/S on a 1.6x crop body. However, the same effect could be achieved by pointing a 5D with 24mm 'regular' lens straight and level but framed so we can crop to one side of the frame. This would produce the same thing as the tilted crop camera. Considering the price of a 5D body and the price of a 24 T/S, I'd prefer the 5D crop method of shifting. Tilted lenses have a problem unless you are shooting a flat plane. Sure that flat plane can be tilted but you still get no boost in depth of field so a problem arises if all the significant points in the shot are not aligned properly. Focus stacking solves this easily.

May I suggest a 'weekly' for Athena: Shoot a full length with the feet close to the camera and the head far away using a wide lens. Tell the model not to move or get someone to shoot you with the camera on a tripod while you hold the pose. Shoot a series at moderate aperture (f/8 focused first on the toes and then knees, waist, shoulders and head taking care nothing moves while refocusing. Run the results through CombineZM at the default settings. We see a lot of focused stacked images on Camel but most are in the Macro area. The concept will work with people as well. A good starter might be a sleeping child or model who really knows how to hold a pose rock steady.

[Max@Home]

Originally Posted by Rense

OT1: Max why do you want a 35 1.4 ?

...I shoot the zooms for 'Bread and Butter', but like the primes for 'Art & Passion', 35/1.4 - 50/1.2 - 85/1.2 - 135/2.0 would be my private 'dreamteam' and in my personal kit bag, with the 24-105F4IS as sole 'GP' zoom lens

OT2: My wishlist: 135 2.0 / 50 1.0 / 85 1.2 for Canon lenses

see what I mean ?? BTW: the 50F1.2L is a 100% better lens as the 50F1.0L...

OT3: My wishlist for T/S lenses:
Hartblei Superrotator Carl Zeiss Distagon T* IF 1:4.0 40 mm
Hartblei Superrotator Carl Zeiss Planar T* 1:2.8 80 mm
Hartblei Superrotator Carl Zeiss Makro-Planar T* 1:4.0 120 mm

...as said, a T/S lens is wayyy down on my list, unless 'work' gets in the way (which 'made me' upgrade to the 1D3 )...

...€0.02, OT ones ,

Kindest regards!

Max@Home

[brian.austin]

Interesting timing on the question, Athena. I read a good article on T/S lenses in Outdoor Photographer this month and came up with the same questions.

I think the 24mm would be on my list, for exactly the reasons mentioned by Max, but I'm shooting a 40D so the 24mm gives me an effective 38mm FOV. Still a bit tight for interiors.

As for distortion control in software, I've tried it but think it's a bit hit/miss, at least with the CS3 tools. I haven't played with DxO's software, which is supposed to be more "tuned" to a body/lens combination. I'd prefer to do as much of it in-camera as possible.

[JDArt]

Originally Posted by dougsmit

There are two reasons to use a T/S lens. One is for focus control and the other is distortion control.

I agree. And contrary to your earlier statement, I don't see how digital has decreased the usefulness of the T/S lenses in the area of focus control. I have not tried CombineZM; I'll have to. But my experience has taught me that getting what you want in-camera is most often far preferable to trying to get what you want in postprocessing.

[dougsmit]

Originally Posted by JDArt

I agree. And contrary to your earlier statement, I don't see how digital has decreased the usefulness of the T/S lenses in the area of focus control. I have not tried CombineZM; I'll have to. But my experience has taught me that getting what you want in-camera is most often far preferable to trying to get what you want in postprocessing.

I agree 100%. It is always better to get it in camera if you can but what do you do when you can't? T/S lenses are fine for what they do if you have the time to set up the shot, if you don't need the near far focus off a single plane and if they come in the focal length you want. From the beginning of 35mm (Leica A 1925), photographers had to balance what they could do with an 8x10 view against what they could do with the new toy. It was always preferable to shoot with an 8x10 view 'if you could' but there were just those times when the little Leica saved the day. This theory repeated itself with each technological step along the way. Today, I'd suggest that the best possible tool for photography is the digital back on a view camera when used for shots that can be taken with it. That is a very few shots I ever take so I don't own one (like I have the cash to buy one anyway).

The question here is what the T/S lens adds to the toolbag for what you do minus what it can not do (that you want to do) divided by the cost of the unit. If the result is a big number, you buy one. If it is a small fraction, you put it way down on the 'buy' list'. If it is a negative number you sell the one you have.

I stand by the statement that focus stacking and postprocessing controls (PS, PTLens or whatever) have made the desirability fraction of T/S smaller than it was with film. I have shot a lot of view camera pictures using tilt and know well the compromises you run into when adjusting tilts. Focus stacking is better unless there is motion and CombineZM is (IMHO) the best free s/w I ever used. Shift was a way of life with owners of lenses that covered 8x10 but cameras that took 4x5 film. If you owned an 8x10 but your only lens covered no more, all you could do was shoot loose and crop. This did not work with 35mm film because the image quality loss in cropping was high. Today we have cameras that look like each other and take the same lenses but vary from 6MP to 20+MP. If you have a lens that covers full frame and shoot loosely you can crop just like we did with our 8x10's. When you buy that T/S lens, be sure to check how far it can shift before you run out of image circle (a lot for long ones but less at wide angles on a ff body). At $1150 for a 24 t/s, I'll still suggest trying a regular 24 on a 5D (or better FF body) and cropping. There is a price difference but you can always use the body for non-t/s shots and recoup some of the difference.

A request: Can anyone find a reference to how far you can shift a 24mm T/S on a ff body before you get corner problems? It is not hard to find the shift specs but that is not the same thing as the image circle specs. Does anyone have a 24 and 5D that could try it?

[Max@Home]

Originally Posted by brian.austin

As for distortion control in software, I've tried it but think it's a bit hit/miss, at least with the CS3 tools. I haven't played with DxO's software, which is supposed to be more "tuned" to a body/lens combination.

...have you tried LensCorrection from DPP ?? Interested in your findings

...€0.02...

Kindest regards,

Max@Home

[Athena]

Great information posted while I was sleeping! Thank you so much!

We are moving from Thailand and I would like to take some photos in the house before we go. In addition, when we were looking for a house in KL I noticed how dreadful the real estate photos there are, so that maybe something to do there.

For what I want to do, the 24mm TS lens is the one I would choose. I have absolutely no experience with them though, so don't know how well it would fit my needs. I can manage manual focusing, but how is the dof? I don't have a WA lens anymore, but remember essentially not having to worry about dof at all with the one I had because it was deep. Would that be the case with the TS?

What I have now is a 5D, and a 20D; EF 100 macro, EF 50 1.4, EFS 17-85(probably should sell), EFS 60 macro, EF 24-105L, EF 70-200L, and a Tamron 28-85. I used to have the 10-22 and loved it, but I sold it when I bought the 5D. I had intended to replace it with something I could use on the 5D, but haven't done so.

Suggestions?