Softball, Dancing, Lighting and Printing

[iflynething]

My aunt told me about a guy with her neice's softball team that wanted me to do the shots for his entire softball unit. By unit, I hear there will be 7 softball teams and this might lead to football and cheerleading photos. I have called the guy 4 times, left 3 voicemails and he has not returned my phone calls...

My sister is in dance (and I"m completely involved in it too). They (the dancers, the parents AND the dance studio owner) have been VERY unsatisfied with the quality and mainly the attitude of the photographer they have had for the past years. They are non personal and seem to come in, take the picture and leave, then come back to do it again next year. I tried to get some stuff together last year for the studio shots but was unable to, so the other photographer did them as usual - and, as usual, most people were dissatisfied. It seems as though they get the pictures from them....well, just because. Technically as far as lighting goes they are great. The guy uses a D70 or 70s and knows what he is doing, he is just not fun to work with....for anyone.

Along with talking about lighting, I do not have any equipment. If the softball guy will contact me back, I would love to work with him. While both of these things are not out the possibility for me to do, I am wondering if it would be better just to rent lighting or buy some. I am back and forth with this because I have considered opening a studio. I could buy it and have it for that use, or just rent it. Either way, I think I would be making enough to pay for equipment -whether it was rented or bought.

One other concern I have is the delivery. The dance photographer has sleeves (for lack of a better word) that says "Portraits" and some designs on it. I have plenty of time to get whatever I would need together, together. Where I would print the prints. There would be alot. About 200 individual pictures for the dance and who knows for the softball. I heard there are about 12-15 girls on each team. So I'm looking at some 8x10s of that plus all of the individual photos...not to mention all of the individual prints I would have along with the group shots for the dance.

I am not completely uncomfortable shooting the softball shots and have NO problem shooting the dance. I'm just concerned mainly about getting myself into too much. Like I said, I would have plenty of time to get things together since none of this would happen until next May for the dance shots and probably about the same time for the softball. Since I haven't talked to the guy, I don't know if he wants the shots before or after the season is over. As for the dancing, I would need to come up with packages (which going over with my girlfriend who also dances said should be cheap!), printing out enough copies for everyone, and just having general orgainization for people to order. Last year, the photography was done over a week. Distributing the different classes over different days to make it not as hectic.

What are your thoughts?

~Michael~

[korman]

You sound very confused.

Have checked the business side of those jobs and whether you can and want to produce the price you desire?

Korman

[iflynething]

Originally Posted by korman

Have checked the business side of those jobs and whether you can and want to produce the price you desire?

Korman

What do you mean by this last part?

I am not confused as much as taking it all in as to what all this would include doing? I am very confident that I can do it

~Michael~

[korman]

I just mean, if you're expected to undercut the other photographer, will it be worth the time and effort for what you get?

Korman

[iflynething]

I am definitly not looking to undercut the other photographer. My prices in the end, will probably be the same

~Michael~

[Rosko2]

Hi Michael,

It sounds like you are very good at the planning stages of things you are about to jump into, which is good.

Wonder if you just do the dance shoot this time around and waiting for the next year to pursue the softball gig? You say yourself that the dance gig would be no problem for you, but the softball gig might not be as comfortable. I would use your planning expertise for the dance gig, cut your teeth on that, and take what you learn and apply it to other things you may not be as comfortable with, the like softball gig, in the future. That way you could learn how to deal with clients and see how they react with any pricing and/or packages you are thinking about offering, along with learning any possible "quirks" that may arise with the printing lab you may go with. I would probably also rent lighting this time around. Call me cheap(i prefer frugal ), but I hate to spend money not associated with my "photography fund" and justify it by saying, "heck, I'll make that money back on the the next shoot." I prefer to rent if I have to until I do "that next shoot" then lay down the cold hard cash for something I need after the fact. That's just me.

And one more thing...Take comments on this board with a grain of salt. Use what is useful and helpful and disregard the rest...Especially people that are negative 99% of the time.

Good luck and let us know what you end up doing!

[iflynething]

Originally Posted by Rosko2

Hi Michael,

It sounds like you are very good at the planning stages of things you are about to jump into, which is good.

Wonder if you just do the dance shoot this time around and waiting for the next year to pursue the softball gig? You say yourself that the dance gig would be no problem for you, but the softball gig might not be as comfortable. I would use your planning expertise for the dance gig, cut your teeth on that, and take what you learn and apply it to other things you may not be as comfortable with, the like softball gig, in the future. That way you could learn how to deal with clients and see how they react with any pricing and/or packages you are thinking about offering, along with learning any possible "quirks" that may arise with the printing lab you may go with. I would probably also rent lighting this time around. Call me cheap(i prefer frugal ), but I hate to spend money not associated with my "photography fund" and justify it by saying, "heck, I'll make that money back on the the next shoot." I prefer to rent if I have to until I do "that next shoot" then lay down the cold hard cash for something I need after the fact. That's just me.

And one more thing...Take comments on this board with a grain of salt. Use what is useful and helpful and disregard the rest...Especially people that are negative 99% of the time.

Good luck and let us know what you end up doing!

Hey thanks for the comments. You're not cheap. I'm cheap. I never like to justify buying something because I'll make it back. I can rent it for cheaper, make back the less money I had to spend on renting it plus more - what I would have spent on actually buying the equipment.

I have to photography buddies that might let me use theirs. One never lets me use his lenses (the guy shoots with a D3 has about $30-40,000 in other equipment) but has the other lighting and might let me use it. I KNOW the other one will let me rent his. I have used PLENTY of his lenses and rented his entire studio. I'm sure if I give him enough advance notice it shouldn't be a problem.

I do think that the softball might be a little bit of an overkill and may - like you said - just stick with the dance. I know ALL of the parents and am always around the studio, as well as doing the photography for the competition shots, the studio would be an added bonus. . .

As with all business, I'm trying to make the most profit. Renting now and buying later would be one step at attaining that goal.

I think I could find out alot about what works and what doesn't by just doing the dance stuff. I still haven't talked to the softball guy so I don't even know if that will work and how he wants to do thing - even how serious he is about me doing it.

~Michael~

[iflynething]

I don't think I am going to do the softball. I haven't heard much from the guy getting it all together. He seems to be very hard to get in touch with.

All the times I have called him, he is at a game and he has to get back with me. Since there are games now, I assume they would want the picture this year since softball isn't a winter sport. I would not be able to get everything together in that short amount of time and definitly wouldn't want to rush it.

~Michael~

[iflynething]

Update guys:

Still haven't heard from the softball guy. I'm going to cut my losses and just forget about him. I have left him 1 more message and am not going to deal with it again.

As for the dance photography, I have been able to talk some with the owner. Sometime after Christmas, we are going to get together for a while and talk things through. She was able to find a price sheet from the other photographer with his different packages.

Also, she mentioned that many of the parents mentioned something about being able to view the images. To me, this is a double sided sword. On one hand, they might see it and not be happy with the image, asking me to take it again, which I probably wouldn't do because the kids (the younger ones) aren't smiling or just for whatever reason they come up with. On the other hand, well I can only see that they will either like or not like the image and that will be time consuming. The dance studio owner suggested maybe setting up a time the following week (the actual picture portion will be a week process) and have set appointments. I think this actually might work, but it's still in the works. The competition parents know the type or work I do, so I wouldn't' expect them to ask for an appointment. I think a viewing on the LCD might do - if that. I will have more appointments for viewing - if I even do it - from the parents I do not know and don't really even know me. For compeition photos, I sell them at $4/img burned to CD with a photo release. I have felt for the past 2 years I am undercutting myself and will probably raise that per image price. Anyways, coinciding with the posed shot, I though of buying a large LCD tv and keep it in the studio. When a competition parent wanted to view pictures from a recent competition, I can hook my laptop to the TV and viewing would be MUCH better. I would also use this TV once it came time for parents to view the posed pictures.

Another thing, I would like to offer different products. I will have compeittive prices if not the same as what the previous photographer offered. I also want to do things like magnets and keychains and pins (the big round ones with the picture in the center). I will be printing from mpix and will probably do their Pro account. The only things I see that people may be interested in are the magnets and keychains. If you think I could sell others, let me know. I told the studio owner I considered putting a sheet in the lobby and have the parents write down what they would like to have offered. Would that work? I figure they would put down the usual like the magnets, but I might have some other off the wall responses. If they demand is there, I will find a way to provide for them.

I can't think of anything else to say.

Thanks everyone for all the help so far! I appreciate it greatly

~Michael~

[swift_wraith]

Originally Posted by iflynething

snip...
The competition parents know the type or work I do, so I wouldn't' expect them to ask for an appointment. I think a viewing on the LCD might do - if that.
~Michael~

Have you considered a viewing via your laptop? I find the LCD far too small for the untrained eye. Plus a bigger image may result in increased sales.

[iflynething]

I usually do use my laptop for viewing but I would like something bigger. I'm not sure how or if I would be able to set up live feed. Basically, whatever is on my camera, it can go through the camera to a tv or straight to the tv. Maybe hook up the AV cables? I'm not sure? If I have settings right, all I would do it view it and not have to worry about showing them the bad pictures. I would have a controlled environment.

Also, I'm not going to have time to use a laptop because of time constraints. It's gonna be kinda quick and dirty in a good way. They're in, and out just like that. Group shot, individuals and that's it. I will have about 1 1/2 - 2 hrs per group (of about 10-20, maybe 30 girls - those groups of 10-20 will be aged 3-6 y/o). What the studio does is whatever time and day the girls had their normal dance class, that is what time they would come and get the picture made.

Is there "live" view?

~Michael~

[swift_wraith]

look into "shooting tethered", you can then download them to your laptop whenever you take a pic and then simply hook the laptop to a tv as a second monitor with the view set as mirrored to the 1st monitor and they will come up on the big screen.

do you shoot canon or nikon? we could then recommend software that can shoot tethered. You will need either a radio transmitter or you will be constrained with a long usb lead (i believe its 5 metres max length before you need a usb repeater, can someone verify this?)

Ant

[iflynething]

I'm shooting a Nikon D300 (this TPF take off signatures?)

I have seen some wireless transmitters and I think that would be the best option. They aren't THAT expensive. I might even be able to use one from two photographers I talk to.

~Michael~

[Pixart]

Magnets can be a very good seller. Last summer I made a template with the text "Grandpa's Little Princess, Grandma's Soccer Star" and man did they ever sell well with the under 6 kids.

Trader cards also sell well. If Mpix can't make them you can offer a 1-sided wallet photo that you make a template to look like the front of a trading card.

If you hire a kid to model for you - say you pay her $25 to pose for an hour in some different costumes - print up sample posters and buttons for say $30 and display them where all your parents will see how wonderful they are. Your $55 investment can bring you extra thousands. Can be the difference between a parent buying a $20 basic package and a $50 package.

Put as many images as possible on your order form. When I added a ton of visuals I started selling a lot more $ than just a text form.

[Pixart]

Are there no pro-labs where you live? I've heard good things about Mpix but the thought of waiting for shipments and then dealing with any problems... It never fails that I will order a big event and miss an 8x10 or a little print and have to run back to the lab. What would you spend in messenger fees for a tiny little order?

The bonus with my pro-lab is they give me a store-credit at the end of each year, it is a tiered percentage back of my photo-finishing. They also treat me very well there. Many times when I pay for something they just throw me a 10-25% discount. I think it's extremely important for a photographer to build a relationship with their lab. With Mpix you will just be an account number.

[iflynething]

Originally Posted by Pixart

Magnets can be a very good seller. Last summer I made a template with the text "Grandpa's Little Princess, Grandma's Soccer Star" and man did they ever sell well with the under 6 kids.

Trader cards also sell well. If Mpix can't make them you can offer a 1-sided wallet photo that you make a template to look like the front of a trading card.

If you hire a kid to model for you - say you pay her $25 to pose for an hour in some different costumes - print up sample posters and buttons for say $30 and display them where all your parents will see how wonderful they are. Your $55 investment can bring you extra thousands. Can be the difference between a parent buying a $20 basic package and a $50 package.

Put as many images as possible on your order form. When I added a ton of visuals I started selling a lot more $ than just a text form.

Since I'm pretty comfortable with all the compeition dance girls, I could probably get some to model for me and send off for some different products for display.

Originally Posted by Pixart

Are there no pro-labs where you live? I've heard good things about Mpix but the thought of waiting for shipments and then dealing with any problems... It never fails that I will order a big event and miss an 8x10 or a little print and have to run back to the lab. What would you spend in messenger fees for a tiny little order?

The bonus with my pro-lab is they give me a store-credit at the end of each year, it is a tiered percentage back of my photo-finishing. They also treat me very well there. Many times when I pay for something they just throw me a 10-25% discount. I think it's extremely important for a photographer to build a relationship with their lab. With Mpix you will just be an account number.

Unfortunatly, I'm not sure of a pro lab in my area. Nothing that would just be online.

I sure do wish there was something close, though

~Michael~

[iflynething]

Alright, I'm back.

I have been able to find some money just laying around as well as my money tree is back in full swing, kinda.

I am set on buying AlienBee AB800 lights. Currently, my shopping cart has $1,142.26 (GULP!!) of lighting stuff in there and I haven't even bought backgrounds, background stands of any kind!

B800 Black Studio Flash: I was told this would be enough power. 1600 would bee too much and 400, probably not enough for my large groups.
13-foot Heavy Duty Stand: Would 10 ft do? I'm not sure.
48-inch Shoot-Thru Umbrella: not sure what type of umbrella. There are silver, translucent white, white/silver reversable, but I'm not sure which ones to get.

I have NO clue what backgrounds I'm going to get and where I"m going to get the from either. If you suggest a place, please tell me. I was prepared at $1,000, but I"m going to be at $1,500 by the time I have EVERYTHING I THINK I might need.

Please, if you have any other suggestions, please tell me. I will be buying lights either this week or next but don't know if the Bees will be best for the money

~Michael~

[RocketRick]

Originally Posted by iflynething

Alright, I'm back.

I have been able to find some money just laying around as well as my money tree is back in full swing, kinda.

I am set on buying AlienBee AB800 lights. Currently, my shopping cart has $1,142.26 (GULP!!) of lighting stuff in there and I haven't even bought backgrounds, background stands of any kind!

B800 Black Studio Flash: I was told this would be enough power. 1600 would bee too much and 400, probably not enough for my large groups.
13-foot Heavy Duty Stand: Would 10 ft do? I'm not sure.
48-inch Shoot-Thru Umbrella: not sure what type of umbrella. There are silver, translucent white, white/silver reversable, but I'm not sure which ones to get.

I have NO clue what backgrounds I'm going to get and where I"m going to get the from either. If you suggest a place, please tell me. I was prepared at $1,000, but I"m going to be at $1,500 by the time I have EVERYTHING I THINK I might need.

Please, if you have any other suggestions, please tell me. I will be buying lights either this week or next but don't know if the Bees will be best for the money

~Michael~

If you're going to be shooting large groups, then tall (and of course, sturdy) light stands are a must. You want to get your lights up high, to get rid of shadows on the back row's faces.

Umbrellas come in two main varieties: white shoot-through ones, and black-backed reflective. The reflective ones come with silver, white, or gold interiors, depending on what you want. You can even get white ones with removable black covers, which can be used either way.

Shoot-through umbrellas are convenient if you just want to soften the light, and don't mind bouncing a lot of light around the room. Reflective umbrellas give you more control, and prevent the light from spilling in unwanted directions. Silver gives relatively "harsh" reflections, but are the most efficient. Gold will provide a warmer light, but is otherwise similar to silver. White reflective is less efficient, but gives a more even light, without hotspots.

For large group portraits, you're probably going to want to use 2 main lights, one angled in from up high on each side, and feathered across the group to provide as even light as possible. These should probably be used "bare" without any umbrella, or at most with a black-backed reflective silver umbrella, to maximize their power and keep your recycle times low, while avoiding sending any light back towards the camera, which might cause lens flare and loss of contrast.

Then, you'll also want a "fill" light positioned just behind and above your shooting position, which will be dialed down in power to just fill in any deep shadows that the camera sees. If you'd like, the fill light can have a big white shoot-through umbrella on it, to spread the light around a bit more, and make a nice round catch-light in everyone's eyes. Or, the fill light can come from an on-camera hotshoe-mount flash. The main thing to do is adjust its power down to the point where it lightens the shadows, without giving a "deer in the headlights" look.

For backgrounds, I'd recommend something simple to start with. A neutral grey muslin or seamless paper, tacked to the wall at least 6 or 8 feet behind your subjects, can serve as a black background (by simply not lighting it), a white background (by lighting it to be over-exposed), or anything in between. Add a few gels to your background lights, and it can be any color you want. If you're setting up your own studio, consider simply painting the back wall a neutral medium grey.

You can find relatively inexpensive background supports, seamless paper, and muslins on eBay, as well.

Hope this helps!

- Rick

[iflynething]

Rick,

Thanks for the detailed explanation. Going only by what you describe the umbrellas as, I think the reflective ones might be best so, as you say, I can have more control over. The most I will have in my group shots is 30 and it will go down from there, but 30 is it.

I have ideas on how I would se up the lights and what you described is about accurate. The only thing is, I'm only going to be able to get 3 lights. I will use two for the large groups, one on each side angles in and the other for my individual shots. I belive one will be enough for individual shots (and even if they would like to have leaps in their photo - for the older students).

As for till, I believe my SB-800 would work just fine for till. Using the two AB800's and the SB-800 either on my camera or just on another light stand.

I cannot afford to buy another light right now, maybe a AlienBee 400 for till, if that. I am looking for the most even lighting possible. The groups are arranged to where people in the back will have pretty much no shadows. The dance teacher is pretty decent at getting them about right, and I would just adjust accordingly.

As for backgrounds, I am only going on what the past photographer was using and it had some color, but who's not to say I can change that this year. It's all about what I want to do, and your suggestion might work. I am completely unfamiliar with backgrounds, not exactly lighting, just backgrounds. What works, what doesn't, etc.

Thanks again for your thoughtfulness to respond with so much detail. You're really helping alot

~Michael~

[RocketRick]

Originally Posted by iflynething

Rick,

Thanks for the detailed explanation. Going only by what you describe the umbrellas as, I think the reflective ones might be best so, as you say, I can have more control over. The most I will have in my group shots is 30 and it will go down from there, but 30 is it.

I have ideas on how I would se up the lights and what you described is about accurate. The only thing is, I'm only going to be able to get 3 lights. I will use two for the large groups, one on each side angles in and the other for my individual shots. I belive one will be enough for individual shots (and even if they would like to have leaps in their photo - for the older students).

As for till, I believe my SB-800 would work just fine for till. Using the two AB800's and the SB-800 either on my camera or just on another light stand.

I cannot afford to buy another light right now, maybe a AlienBee 400 for till, if that. I am looking for the most even lighting possible. The groups are arranged to where people in the back will have pretty much no shadows. The dance teacher is pretty decent at getting them about right, and I would just adjust accordingly.

As for backgrounds, I am only going on what the past photographer was using and it had some color, but who's not to say I can change that this year. It's all about what I want to do, and your suggestion might work. I am completely unfamiliar with backgrounds, not exactly lighting, just backgrounds. What works, what doesn't, etc.

Thanks again for your thoughtfulness to respond with so much detail. You're really helping alot

~Michael~

Michael,

A few quick questions:

Are the individual and group shots going to be happening at the same time? If not, then there's no reason that you can't have all three of your lights available for each setup.

How are you going to trigger the remote flashes? You have three basic choices: Optical, wired, or radio control.

Optical comes in two main flavors: "dumb" optical slave mode, or "smart" camera-controlled (such as the Nikon CLS and Olympus RC systems). Both share the same weaknesses: they are subject to interference from outside light sources, and they require line-of-sight (or a good strong reflection) from the camera to the sensor on the light.

Wired control generally means "PC" cords (named for Prontor and Compur, the two shutter manufacturers that pioneered this connector standard). Wires are generally very reliable, and don't require line-of-sight. However, they're a pain in the neck in practice, as the connectors always seem to pull loose when they shouldn't, and the wires always end up in just the right places to be tripped over. If you're shooting in a studio setting, where you can take the time to route the wires properly, provide strain relief near the attachment points, and the equipment doesn't get moved around all the time, then wires are probably a great way to go. In the field, they'll probably just annoy the heck out of you.

Radio triggers are my personal preference. They don't require line of sight, and there are no long cables to trip over or pull loose from their own weight. Prices vary considerably: You can spend a relative fortune on Pocket Wizards, which are the top of the line name brand triggers that are basically an industry standard, or you can buy "poverty wizards", which is the slang term for any of a dozen types of inexpensive Chinese radio triggers available on eBay and elsewhere. Several lighting manufacturers have their own "midrange" systems, at prices in between.

I'm a self-confessed cheap bastard, so I use the PT-04CN model of poverty wizards. I own about 8 of the receivers, and two transmitters, so I'm safely covered if something breaks. I did a few informal tests of their range, and they worked fine at distances of a couple hundred feet, which was more than I've ever needed in practice.

I'm also always on the lookout for inexpensive shoe-mount flashes to use with my radio triggers. In addition to my one TTL flash from my camera manufacturer (which I use whenever I need just a single on-camera light), I have at least half a dozen "random" flashes I've picked up from eBay and elsewhere, most for $15 or less. I've spent a little more (still under $30 each) for a couple of them that were higher-power and widely adjustable, but most were $10 to $15 each.

I'm not trying to say you need to do or buy any or all of this. I'm just mentioning it to give you an idea of the relatively inexpensive options that are out there. Personally, I'm having fun with it. If I was a big-name photographer, I might end up spending a lot more on expensive big-name-brand gear. I'm not -- and, I'm notoriously cheap -- so I buy a lot of inexpensive gear, and work with what I have.

Cheers,

- Rick