Can I sell my photos legally??

[ll3rd]

Originally Posted by sniper3450

There is no set authority other than the folks who run the leagues, events. The reply I gave was a conglomeration of all answers and permissions given me by those who are in charge of general events. Each event will no doubt have an individual set of rules governing the "intrusive" photographer. I also cite from legal teams in the area of copyright laws (where minors are concerned). Also, it is wise to obtain a model release for each and every person you photograph during an event.

Unless you are in California (where there is a large population of "celebrities"), photos of celebrities are a whole different can of worms, you do NOT need a "Model Release" for anyone, child or adult, until, and unless, you are going to sell the photo to some corporate entity that might, at some time, use the photo in an advertisement. They just wont buy them without the release.

Also, some "photo contests" demand a model release for use of the photo, but those same "contests" usually usurp copyright to all entries, and in that case, I wouldn't enter the contest.

Using the photo in your own "portfolio" whether on-line, or in print, does not, in any state where I have checked, (and I've checked in about 22 states so far) require a model release either.. A portfolio of your "work product" to promote, display, and enhance your business, IS NOT A COMMERCIAL USE. (Been there, fought that battle).

Also, Sniper 3450 mentions Minor children.. copyright, and sales laws, DO NOT DIFFERENTIATE between age groups, Your work product, as a photographer, is considered ART, and you can shoot it, sell it, and make a profit with it.

Until, and unless, you start shooting little children running around naked, or in their under-wear, you are pretty well covered, with the law on YOUR side.

[PetsPhotography]

My suggestion to give the images away and ask for a donation to the sports club was a way to get money for the club.

I strongly disagree with your statement that giving away the images devalues them or that people don't respect and don't appreciate the value of such things given away. My experience is that people are very appreciative and do value the images. Giving such things away is an invaluable tool for someone who is trying to start a photography business. It is a great way to introduce one's services to those that might not otherwise know that you offer these services.

In the 1970's, as an amateur photographer, I took pictures at tennis club that I was a member of....people playing tennis and special events, that sort of thing. I always gave them away and was happy to make a few prints for those that asked. Over a couple years time, I cannot even count the number of paid weddings, anniversary parties, sweet 16s, Bar Mitzvahs, and family portraits I was asked to do as a result of people coming to know me as a photographer.

Quick story:
I remember the first time someone at the tennis club asked me if I did wedding photography too. I never had done one, but I said yes. I booked the wedding and then went to the library and took out 4 books on how to shoot weddings and read them cover to cover. I shot the wedding, the customers were happy, and that led to even more work.

I understand that an established photographer might not want to or need to give things free, but for someone starting in the business, I think it is a good way to make yourself known while not placing unrealistic expectations on the quality of the work.

Richie

[ll3rd]

Originally Posted by PetsPhotography

My suggestion to give the images away and ask for a donation to the sports club was a way to get money for the club.

I strongly disagree with your statement that giving away the images devalues them or that people don't respect and don't appreciate the value of such things given away. My experience is that people are very appreciative and do value the images. Giving such things away is an invaluable tool for someone who is trying to start a photography business. It is a great way to introduce one's services to those that might not otherwise know that you offer these services.

In the 1970's, as an amateur photographer, I took pictures at tennis club that I was a member of....people playing tennis and special events, that sort of thing. I always gave them away and was happy to make a few prints for those that asked. Over a couple years time, I cannot even count the number of paid weddings, anniversary parties, sweet 16s, Bar Mitzvahs, and family portraits I was asked to do as a result of people coming to know me as a photographer.

Quick story:
I remember the first time someone at the tennis club asked me if I did wedding photography too. I never had done one, but I said yes. I booked the wedding and then went to the library and took out 4 books on how to shoot weddings and read them cover to cover. I shot the wedding, the customers were happy, and that led to even more work.

I understand that an established photographer might not want to or need to give things free, but for someone starting in the business, I think it is a good way to make yourself known while not placing unrealistic expectations on the quality of the work.

Richie

I think I read your suggestion as a blanket suggestion for all photographers in general (a mistake on my part)..

Its the "electronic copy" part that I object to.

A full resolution "Electronic copy" of any one of my images is the single most expensive way to buy one from me. If you were to re-phrase it to "reduced resolution files" suitable for 3x5 prints or facebook... I'd have no objection at all.

If and when I do a "give-away" its usually 3x5 or 4x6 prints..

Granted, they cost me a few cents each to make, and they can be scanned and re-printed, regardless of the "Do Not Copy" warning about copyright ect. on the back, But a full resolution large print cant be made from them, and they do contain a "Logo" and copyright mark on the print-side.

[PetsPhotography]

Originally Posted by ll3rd

If you can legally TAKE the photo, You can legally SELL the photo.

That sometimes depends on who the buyer is.
If I take pictures at the school soccer game of Johnny, I can offer to sell it to him.
I may not be able to sell it legally to a third party without a release.

[PetsPhotography]

Originally Posted by ll3rd

I If you were to re-phrase it to "reduced resolution files" suitable for 3x5 prints or facebook... I'd have no objection at all.

Consider it rephrased!

[ll3rd]

Originally Posted by PetsPhotography

That sometimes depends on who the buyer is.
If I take pictures at the school soccer game of Johnny, I can offer to sell it to him.
I may not be able to sell it legally to a third party without a release.

In most states, you can sell to whomever is willing to buy without a release.
The only party (again in most states) that REQUIRES a release is somebody that wants to use it for advertising.. (been there, done that, got the hat, the T-shirt, and the court decision).

[PetsPhotography]

Yes, you are correct.
I misspoke. I meant to say that the third party cannot legally use it for most purposes without a model release from the subject and a copyright release from the photographer.

Selling a photo to someone legally gives them the right to possess it, but not always the right to publish it or duplicate it.

[willowbridge]

Wow! This thread really hit some nerves, didn't it?? LOL! Thanks so much for all the great advice.

I actually am a Sole Proprietorship. I have all my business licenses and collect sales tax on all my prints so I think I'm legal in that aspect. And I'm in the state of Georgia if anyone knows any specifics on my state regarding the sale of photos from events.

All the parents are aware of what I wanted to do and have given permission and are excited. I've had several responses here that are trying to beat me up for taking pictures of people's children and posting them on my site. We announced what I wanted to do in our booster club meeting a few weeks back and ALL parents were 100% for it. So I'm not concerned about the parents. They are all on board.

I have not been taking the photos since the school asked me not to, but I still have parents coming up to me and begging me to take pix of their players. This is the first year our school has had volleyball and it's "history" for these girls. The school does not even have a photographer that comes to the games so there's no way for the girls to get good action shots unless an outside photographer comes in. Frustrating!!

[swampler]

Willowbridge,

Your original post said the school told you that you couldn't advertise your shots as a fund raiser. They said nothing about you not taking shot or selling them independent of the school unless you left out some information. Either talk to the school again and get clarification, so you can start shooting again, or if your original post is what they said, it seems pretty clear to me that they don't mind you shooting, so long as you don't claim it's a fund raiser.

[barrybd]

Coming from a non-profit's point of view, you could suggest a donation to the booster club and just give the pictures away to the parents. No sale, no transaction, just one parent giving a picture to another.

[TheShooter]

I'm sorry but the School (K - 12 ) doesn't own the rights, blocking you from photographing these kids. Photography is not a crime. If one of the parents wants to hire you to film their kid you now have a contract. The contract between the school and another company is a two party contract and not binding on you. If the school wants to forbid everyone from taking pictures they can do that. But the uproar from the parents will be heard across the state.

[willowbridge]

The original idea was the fundraiser, which the school shot down. That I can understand because it would be advertisement for another photographer. But I went back and offered to take the pictures as a parent, sell the photos to the parents who wanted them and donate the money as a parent of the booster club. That way it would not be associated with my business, fundraiser, etc.

This is the email I received from the coach regarding my second offer:

"I see your point but I have spoken to our athletic director and principal and they have asked me to tell you not to take pictures at our games and sell them to our parents. I appreciate your support of our booster club and I appreciate your daughter's contribution to our team. Please understand that this is not personal and neither me nor the administration are angry with you but they just do not want you to sell our game pictures to our parents because if violates their contract with Strawbridge Studios."

So that lead to my question here. I really don't want to tick the school off, but it just didn't seem right. Especially when the parents were all for it! I don't know......

[TheShooter]

Is the the Strawbridge Studios that is located in NC? If so check around and see if they are licensed. I had one school district try to bully me. It only happend once and they were quickly set straight. What service is Strawbridge Studios providing to the school district when they don't show up? What memories are the parents loosing when they don't show up. If I were in your shoes I would go ahead and take the pictures and use a website like PhotoReflect to sell them. You can password protect the event, watermark the picture and only give the parent requesting the pictures the password. Do NO advertising at the event Trust me the work of mouth will sell you pictures. Never hand out a business card while on school propertry. But go ahead and carry some post-its and hand them out when asked. They can NOT stop you from taking pictures.

[KmH]

Originally Posted by PetsPhotography

Yes, you are correct.
I misspoke. I meant to say that the third party cannot legally use it for most purposes without a model release from the subject and a copyright release from the photographer.

Selling a photo to someone legally gives them the right to possess it, but not always the right to publish it or duplicate it.

Be very careful with the term 'copyright release'. It can, and has been, interpreted to mean you have forfieted ownship of your copyright.

What you really mean is a 'Use License'.

Many retail photographers (portraits/weddings) call a use license, a print release, a far less ambiguous term than 'copyright release.'

[TheShooter]

This is a little off topic. It pertains to our legal right to photograph. Photography is Not a Crime — It’s a First Amendment Right

[pro]

So any info on the state of Georgia I live there to and am starting a photo company.. thanks

[PetsPhotography]

Originally Posted by KmH

Be very careful with the term 'copyright release'. It can, and has been, interpreted to mean you have forfieted ownship of your copyright.

What you really mean is a 'Use License'.

Many retail photographers (portraits/weddings) call a use license, a print release, a far less ambiguous term than 'copyright release.'

Yes, you are correct...Copyright Release is very general term, as there are several kinds of CRs.
The devil is in the details. Thanks for pointing that out!

[jeff martin]

Legally, they can't stop you from selling prints, once you have the images. They can bar you from future events or ban fans with cameras. The school just can't make any rules that apply only to you. ie If they allow fans to take photos, they can't bar you. But do you really want to get into a pissing contest with the school with lawyers. You could try and work with a local paper to get a credential to get around that, but why not try the easy way first.

Call Strawbridge and talk with them. You're probably already a customer. Explain what you want to do. They most likely have no interest in doing action shots of the team. If you can get them to OK this with the school, you should be good to go.

Note. If your school gets any coverage from a decent sized paper, they are probably already posting game shots for purchase in an online gallery.

[Songman45]

Originally Posted by TheShooter

Is the the Strawbridge Studios that is located in NC? If so check around and see if they are licensed. I had one school district try to bully me. It only happend once and they were quickly set straight. What service is Strawbridge Studios providing to the school district when they don't show up? What memories are the parents loosing when they don't show up. If I were in your shoes I would go ahead and take the pictures and use a website like PhotoReflect to sell them. You can password protect the event, watermark the picture and only give the parent requesting the pictures the password. Do NO advertising at the event Trust me the work of mouth will sell you pictures. Never hand out a business card while on school propertry. But go ahead and carry some post-its and hand them out when asked. They can NOT stop you from taking pictures.

Well its a sad state of affais, isn't it that the school has requested that the photographs not be taken and sold as they find it contrary to an existing contract. I don't think one can justify shooting anyway based on the license of the contracted photography company, the same license test would have to be applied to the OP in that case and I'm not sure he'd past muster. Secondarily, the school owns the property and they can prevent someone from doing anything they have been ask to cease and refuse, this recourse is called a criminal trespass notice and can result in being physically removed by a law enforcement official.

There are things in life we'd like to do but shouldn't because we are asked not to. There are rights in this country that individuals can exercise even if doing so makes them unpopular. And there are things that are of such insignificance they do not warrant fighting for.

Steve

[seanhoxx]

This has been a very good thread, have enjoyed it and the information provided. I also have to consider myself to be in a pretty lucky situation. The reason I got a DSLR was to photograph my daughter in high school sports, and in league sports. I have never had a issue or a problem doing so. In just over 2 years I am now shooting contract for a web radio site that carries many high school games, and puts up photo galleries of them. Some low level freelance work for local media. The high school yearbook advisor has asked to buy photos, I gave them to him, and just asked for name credit in yearbook. Boys and girls soccer as well as marching band is buying a seasons 'best of' CD from me. And I am getting a steady increase in parents asking to buy images. Now I don't consider myself a pro by any means and know that there is a lot of technical
problems' with my images, I think what it is is that I try and get shots of all the kids, and I also do the less covered sports like girls soccer, tennis, cross country as well as the mainstream ones. A good relationship is also very valuable, get to know the folks in charge, and the coaches, athletic directors etc. At my home school and at the neighboring school system I have 'unrestricted access' to the sidelines, court side etc. At away games I check in at the gate and say who I am and who I am with and most times am never asked for media ID. The two guys who cover high school sports in our area as their jobs have been nothing but friendly and supportive with tips and techniques, and just hanging out. Well that's a long ramble but felt it was worth sharing, is my situation pretty much outside the norm? Also I have had nothing support and appreciation from the schools and parents.