Nutty Churches, Insurance Folks, and other crazyiness

[littlegal]

Just signed Church contracts for two nutty Churches. One contract said, I have to shoot from the lobby, and the other one said that photographers weren't allowed on church property.

Next....got a call from a venue requesting my liabilty bond. I have one, a million bucks. Not good enough. They want FOUR insurance riders. My insurance company is working them up. The request came in Friday after 4 and the nutty gal is all pissed off that she doesn't have them yet (for a wedding over a month away). She was informed that the crazy assed crap she was requesting had to be specially written by State Farm. I hope she's happy that her requests were a "first". The long and short of it was that we were to show up on time, not wreck the place, not hold them responsible if our photos sucked, etc.

Called the two brides from the nuthead churches. Both cried. They didn't read the contract. The first understands that she will have few photos, from the back, and far away, of her wedding. The second can't believe that her ceremony can't be photographed at all.
Didn't. Read. The. Contracts.

Two things REALLY bother me: These gals didn't read the contracts. And because of ego, or bad behavior by prior photogs, things have gotten harsher than I've ever seen them.

Venues: due to flakes, I now have to pay for special riders ON TOP of my liability bond, to make some venues happy. Thanks to some flakes, I now have to jump through hoops, or five or ten.

I've spent the entire morning, talking to churches, and crying brides, and insurance agents, and crazy assed venues.

Do I ever quit bitching Apparently not.

[korman]

Cindy,

please don't stop bitching around, it's what bring that kind of craziness to light and perhaps will lead to change.

Perhaps you should add to you price-list a nutty-venue surcharge, where every prospective bride can look up her venue by name.

Korman

[littlegal]

Thanks for being so understanding Korman.


You know what I'm thinking of doing? I'm seriously considering buying a URL, and a slick website where photogs can list problem venues and churches, so that brides have the heads up.

I mean, how many times have we been treated like absolute crap by churches? How many times have we had to bow to the crazy priests on a ego train?

Anyhoo, I'm ready to put my money where my mouth is. I've dealt with these crazy people for way too long.
Instead of them trying to force us out, I say we should start blacklisting them. Once they loose that wedding money, I bet they are way more friendly. I want to do this country wide. Let the brides decide.

[brian.austin]

The website is a neat idea. I like it.

Regarding the churches and your own costs: do you have a stipulation on venue costs or contractual limitations based other contracts? This adds costs to your own process. I'm curious if you have a recovery mechanism or write it off as a learning experience for later.

I'm also curious if you're restricting your clients on their church/venue choices at all? Do you have your own personal "blacklist" on places you won't shoot? If you're running into that many problems, I almost wonder if it wouldn't be a good move to limit issues later.

[swift_wraith]

that website is a neat idea. maybe have to get one going for over here in the uk. i've been asked to shoot my neices baby's christening. The church is bending over backwards to help but the grotty function room theyre hiring afterwards wants me to sign my soul over to them before theyre happy.

[DAVE PROUTY]

So all of you want to make enemies of the clergy!

That will be a losing battle.

You would be better off trying to understand their misgivings about photographers, and try to allay their fears or frustrations with our industry. Many times it will be a problem with one individual photographer who was so arrogant and egocentric in the church, that "rules" had to be made to prevent such disregard, and disrespect, for the clergy ( I know from experience of a case in local Catholic church that usually had no rules! ). They are people, too. You would be better off sitting down with these "nasty" clergy folk, and let them know how much you respect their position. ASK what they don't like. You may find that you can make peace with these clerics. AND be able to shoot more in more ways than the initial rules allow. You catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar! I even had the ability to set up an additional camera where no photographer had been allowed before, just because I had been gracious and respectful.

Get off your high horse! You are not the most important person from everyone's perspective! Don't make enemies. It will only hurt you in the long run. You can be banned from a church! I've seen it! There aren't so many churches around that you can just declare as "no way I'm shooting there" kind of places. Make friends, not enemies.

Littlegal,

Do you really think a bride, who has been a part of a church all her life, will be sympathetic to you, or her church family she's known most of her life?

You really need a reality check! Think about it. I do understand how you feel.

[littlegal]

Originally Posted by brian.austin

The website is a neat idea. I like it.

Regarding the churches and your own costs: do you have a stipulation on venue costs or contractual limitations based other contracts? This adds costs to your own process. I'm curious if you have a recovery mechanism or write it off as a learning experience for later.

I'm also curious if you're restricting your clients on their church/venue choices at all? Do you have your own personal "blacklist" on places you won't shoot? If you're running into that many problems, I almost wonder if it wouldn't be a good move to limit issues later.

I have a clause that says, basically, that I MUST abide by church rules, and if shots are unable to be taken, the liability lies with the churches.

[littlegal]

Originally Posted by DAVE PROUTY

So all of you want to make enemies of the clergy!

That will be a losing battle.

You would be better off trying to understand their misgivings about photographers, and try to allay their fears or frustrations with our industry. Many times it will be a problem with one individual photographer who was so arrogant and egocentric in the church, that "rules" had to be made to prevent such disregard, and disrespect, for the clergy ( I know from experience of a case in local Catholic church that usually had no rules! ). They are people, too. You would be better off sitting down with these "nasty" clergy folk, and let them know how much you respect their position. ASK what they don't like. You may find that you can make peace with these clerics. AND be able to shoot more in more ways than the initial rules allow. You catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar! I even had the ability to set up an additional camera where no photographer had been allowed before, just because I had been gracious and respectful.

Get off your high horse! You are not the most important person from everyone's perspective! Don't make enemies. It will only hurt you in the long run. You can be banned from a church! I've seen it! There aren't so many churches around that you can just declare as "no way I'm shooting there" kind of places. Make friends, not enemies.

Littlegal,

Do you really think a bride, who has been a part of a church all her life, will be sympathetic to you, or her church family she's known most of her life?

You really need a reality check! Think about it. I do understand how you feel.

Actaully, yes.
The girls many times wish that they could get out of the contract with the church when they learn the rules. I try to calm them by telling them that we will simply recreate THE ENTIRE CEREMONY....
I agree that I've heard some horror stories myself from priest and ministers. Crap that I can't believe any photog would ever do. There is a fine line to be sure.

But let's take this past Saturday's wedding for example. I arrive at the rehearsal, as I always do, and check in for the church rules. The priest was not there, but his wedding cooridinator informed with me that the priest must 'NEVER SEE US". I ask for clarification. Does that mean that we need to stand back behind all the pews? In the lobby? What?
No....he CAN'T see you.
What does that mean?
"He HATES wedding photographers. Dont' talk to him. Don't even let him see you or you will be in trouble".
Can we use flash on processing in the narthex?
No. No flash, anywhere at any times. He doesn't want to know you are there. He has stopped the ceremony before and thrown photographers out if he ever SEES them.
Can we be in the bridal room?
"only if you don't use flash and he doesn't see you".
Ummmm. Ok.
So the bride and her mother are listening to all this. They are soooo sad. They were also told AT THE LAST MINUTE that the bride couldn't play "here comes the bride" because it "assumes the bride is higher than Christ". Meanwhile at the ceremony, the pianist plays "Wind beneath my Wings", which I instantly assume must be something that the Angles insprired....Whatever.

So meanwhile, me and the team have been avoiding the priest, and hiding like Ninjas. We've got two people hiding behind columns at the back, and I'm hiding behind the pianist up front.

We got a total, out of the 3 of us, maybe 15 shots, because we were so busy following the foolish rules of not "being seen". We have to wait until the priest looks away, and then take a quick shot and hide again, so he doesn't screw up the whole ceremony by stopping it "because of us".

He goes on to give this crazy assed mass. People were looking at each other like, "whatttt"?? He was a really old guy, so I get it. Basically, it was that Obama was a bad guy, and Bush was a good guy, and if you love Bush and Christ, and liked people, (Besides wedding photographers) and old people, and had lots of kids, which you had to take to the crying room because he didn't like crying kids in mass...you were a good Christian. It was the most nutso wedding mass I've ever witnessed.

Was I doing handstand in the pews? Nope. Were we running up and down the aisles? Nope. HAVE WE EVER HAVE WE EVER EVEN USED FLASH HAVE WE EVER MISSED A REHEARSAL OR GONE TO THE OFFICIANT BEFORE HAND TO ASK THE RULES? NOPE. HAVE WE EVER DISOBEYED THEM? NOPE. Even to the detriment of the couple and there memories.

Let me ask you this Dave....can you name one Bible Verse, new testiment or old, that people can not celebrate or for that matter record, a sacred ceremony that honors the love and bond and unity of two people?

I can tell you what I see. I see Priest, and Ministers, a few of them at least, who preach the sancticy of the ceremony, and then have a big broadway production, which includes singers, organists playing non secular songs, and in some cases bands and choirs. And not complete without lighting effects, bells, and chimes.

So get over myself? Really. Just point out in the Bible, where Jesus hates wedding photographers, and I'll stand down.

Meanwhile, I've met a TON of cool priest, rabi's, and ministers. They are like, "Please remember that this is a sacred ceremony, but get the shots you need so that the couples have a great rememberance of their union. Just don't be obnoxious.". They understand that this is a BIG DEAL, especially to people who love their churches. These officiants, for me are the rule and norm.

So what is wrong with a website informing brides BEFORE they are told that they can't shoot the ceremony, and giving them options of churches within, or priest, ministers, and soforth, WITHIN there affiliations, of the options?

[littlegal]

Oh forgot to add....guess who was first in line for formal photos this last Saturday......need I say?
The priest.
Whatever.

[littlegal]

So I'm going forward with my website. Do you think I really care if I work at one venue than another? I'm photographing a UNIION. I'm not doing cartwheels in front of them. I'm standing a respectfull ways away. I'm not using flash. I'm not bossing people around. I'm working with what I have.
Is it wrong to inform people what the church rules are? What churches are photog friendly and which ones are nuts?
I don't think so.
Am I signing the contract for them? No.
Can I inform them before they sign? Yes.
And then they can decide for themselves.
Or is that a problem Dave? Is making them decide between church affiliations and photography, the "devil drawing them away"".
Whatever. Really.
Before you "cast stones" maybe you should walk in the shoes of people who do this weekly". Just a suggestion.
If you had to shoot from the parking lot, with a crying bride saying, "I just want good ceremony photos", maybe You get over yourself.
If no, maybe the priesthood is right for you.....

[RodeoHammer]

WOW these are good thing to remeber before taking the booking. To check with the church and ask lots of questions. I think most priests are crazy any how.
I think I just figured out why he hates photographers. One found him with the alter boy.

[swift_wraith]

as a suggestion, as well as listing all the badchurches/vicars etc. Why not also list all the good ones. the ones who realise how important it is to have a long lasting pictorial memory of the special day and bend over backwards to help out.

[littlegal]

Originally Posted by swift_wraith

as a suggestion, as well as listing all the badchurches/vicars etc. Why not also list all the good ones. the ones who realise how important it is to have a long lasting pictorial memory of the special day and bend over backwards to help out.

Definately! I want to mention the good ones as well!

[Bay Bridge Sue]

While it is up to the "official" in the church what their specific rules and requirements are, it is slightly off base to somehow unload on the photographer who just got a case of Clerical Egotism and is learning how to deal with it. And I like the "Bridal Advice" site - not necessarily dissing the specific establishments but letting the bride's family know what screwy requirements they have ahead of time.

Now... Was the bride using that synagogue or church or temple because their family have been parishioners for generations, and it's a family thing? If so, sometimes you can enlist the support of the Bride's mom to help the cleric realize that maybe he's being a little harsh to his loyal parishioners who have been such from long before he (or she) was there

Remember, when you get these weird-isms it's not the photographer he's (or she's) slapping as much as the Bride and their family... You're just there providing a service for the family, and if the priest or minister or rabbi or whatever is making it difficult for YOU it's not YOU who suffers but the family who are paying for their service and the use of their facility.

Of course the onus for the bride setting this up is to read the silly contract, I know when setting up YOUR wedding you get scatterbrained and in the rosy flush forget stuff, but yeah, this IS important.

IF she chose that church because of it's setting and not out of tradition or history or whatever, then she has to remember there are OTHER scenes to hold AMAZING weddings.

The end result is - you're an employee of the family, just like the caterer and the flower people and the tux rental folks, NOT the church. All you can really do is a lot of planning, let the family who hired you KNOW exactly what the issue is AS SOON AS YOU FIND OUT (and that should be well ahead of the wedding - and regardless of what the church secretary says, as a professional you MUST contact the church, preferably the officiant, well before the event to plan out how to pull this off and still maintain proper respect and decorum)...

And if you should get the, um, I think the official term is "stinkeye" from said officiant, you have the DUTY to let your employer (the family) know ASAP so they can make other plans, pressure the priest, or whatever. THAT is their job. Yours is taking wedding pictures.

Because even tho some clerical folk think they are the ultimate authority, the couple could always elope, or contact an ULC minister and get married at Bridalveil falls in Yosemite, or contact a similar faith establishment up the road where the officient's first name ISN'T Ebineezer, and they'll be just as married. But that's up to them.

Here endeth the diatribe...
bbs

[littlegal]

Originally Posted by Bay Bridge Sue

While it is up to the "official" in the church what their specific rules and requirements are, it is slightly off base to somehow unload on the photographer who just got a case of Clerical Egotism and is learning how to deal with it. And I like the "Bridal Advice" site - not necessarily dissing the specific establishments but letting the bride's family know what screwy requirements they have ahead of time.

Now... Was the bride using that synagogue or church or temple because their family have been parishioners for generations, and it's a family thing? If so, sometimes you can enlist the support of the Bride's mom to help the cleric realize that maybe he's being a little harsh to his loyal parishioners who have been such from long before he (or she) was there

Remember, when you get these weird-isms it's not the photographer he's (or she's) slapping as much as the Bride and their family... You're just there providing a service for the family, and if the priest or minister or rabbi or whatever is making it difficult for YOU it's not YOU who suffers but the family who are paying for their service and the use of their facility.

Of course the onus for the bride setting this up is to read the silly contract, I know when setting up YOUR wedding you get scatterbrained and in the rosy flush forget stuff, but yeah, this IS important.

IF she chose that church because of it's setting and not out of tradition or history or whatever, then she has to remember there are OTHER scenes to hold AMAZING weddings.

The end result is - you're an employee of the family, just like the caterer and the flower people and the tux rental folks, NOT the church. All you can really do is a lot of planning, let the family who hired you KNOW exactly what the issue is AS SOON AS YOU FIND OUT (and that should be well ahead of the wedding - and regardless of what the church secretary says, as a professional you MUST contact the church, preferably the officiant, well before the event to plan out how to pull this off and still maintain proper respect and decorum)...

And if you should get the, um, I think the official term is "stinkeye" from said officiant, you have the DUTY to let your employer (the family) know ASAP so they can make other plans, pressure the priest, or whatever. THAT is their job. Yours is taking wedding pictures.

Because even tho some clerical folk think they are the ultimate authority, the couple could always elope, or contact an ULC minister and get married at Bridalveil falls in Yosemite, or contact a similar faith establishment up the road where the officient's first name ISN'T Ebineezer, and they'll be just as married. But that's up to them.

Here endeth the diatribe...
bbs

You got it friend. Nailed it on the head.
Yeah, sometimes it's the church they have been to forever. That they grew up in. Sometimes it's the church they selected because it was pretty. Either way, it's the church that won't let us shoot or do our job, and the brides are HORRIFIED. Most of them would go shoot in an alley behind a bar if they could get the shots they want. Seriously.
They call me in a tiz to see what I can do. I work all the magic I can ,but if the guy is an ass, he's an ass. That's when the tears start.
And every time, I ask them.......did you even LOOK at the rules?
"No, Father Tom (or whetever) told them it was going to be "ok".
I've had a few brides try to take thier money back and change churches. Good luck with that. You can't bring in a different minister, priest, whatever, because the church won't allow it. These girls are STUCK. The churches giving money back.?? LOLOLOLOLO
I've worked with a LOT of very religious gals and guys. They DONT want this.

[Ed Shapiro]

This is an old and frustrating story. Again, I am not trying to brag but I have clocked in 51 years in the wedding photography business so let me help simplify things and put an end to all of the frustrations. I and my staff, over the years, have taken many approaches to solve theses problems so here are the ideas that worked and parties concerned; we- the photographers, the clients and the clergy.

Logic is one of favorite things, so before I become angry, fly off the handle or give myself and everyone else around me a nervous breakdown, I try to apply logic and common sense and figure out savvy and diplomatic ways of solving any problems that may arise- this usually works. So here are some of the logical components that go into solving the problem at hand.

· Since most wedding photography does not take place in our studios, it is important to realize that houses of worship and reception venues are our work places. You do not want to do anything to make you unwelcome in places where you earn your living. The best thing to do in order to preserve and maintain good relations with churches, synagogues, all manner of sacred places and hospitality venues, is to show respect, kindness, and willingness to cooperate with all the PEOPLE who dwell within those places. Yes! As Dave pointed out, they are people too.

· If there are rules which seem draconian or unfair or even of they there are none, I make it my business to see all of the clergy in charge of the various religious institutions, all the caterers, hall-keepers, hotel people and wedding planners that I will probably run into in our service area. If there are problems, I try to explain our business and operational ethics as photographers working at events at their venues. I always keep in mind that I will get more cooperation with honey as opposed to vinegar and approach everyone with a spirit of friendliness and cooperation. I find that when I extend my hand in friendship most people will react accordingly- what are they gonna do- throw me out? That has never happened.

· The succinct points I want to get across in all theses meeting is that we do not come into venues with the intention of being disruptive or intrusive. I explain that we are not totally invisible but do everything we can to maintain a low profile and will not jump alter rails or stand between the couple and the clergyperson or official who is conducting the ceremonies. We also assure the clergy that we are not in the business of using Holy Sacraments or sacred ceremonies to gain profit. I inform them that we charge our clients the same rates even if we never enter the church. Our only goal, in terms of the ceremony, is to capture all the religious aspects of the wedding for clients who desire to have such images in their wedding albums and without theses images, some feel the photographs reflect nothing more than a big party. I have secured so much cooperation with this explanation that it oftentimes amazes me.

· Many clergypersons confided that if only the photographers would just ask permission and familiarize themselves with their rules and feelings on the matter, they- the Clergy, would be more accommodating.

· With reception folks- I assure them that they can expect total cooperation from us and explain some of the cooperation that we will need when working at the venues. It is important that we don’t get in the way of their serving staff when they are at their busiest and take every safety precaution as to the placement of our equipment. Over the years I can say that we get the utmost cooperation from all the food service and hospitality people that we have worked with.

· Listen up good photographers- Having altercations, feuds or doing battle with religious institutions has got to be the worst kind of public relations or public image you can garner short of being an axe murderer. DON’T DO DAT!

· In a perfect world, the aforementioned policies will work all the time, but it ain’t a perfect world that we live in. You will run into people in authority who are intransigent and even downright nasty and who will refuse to even see you- so what do you do? The first thing I do, when I find out that I am severely limited as to the ceremony coverage, is to talk to the wedding couple and find out their take on the matter. Surprisingly enough, nowadays many couples are not all that interested in the ceremony and tell me that the only reason they are having a religious wedding as opposed to a civil one, is out of respect for their parents and a few shots from the back of the church would suffice. Why get into a tizzy about that? Just stick to the rules and forget about it. If the couple wants to go off on a tirade with their church people- that is their business- it is up to them to acquire some kind of dispensation or permission! If they ask you to break the rules, DON”T! They may never go back to that venue again but you have to work there- perhaps time and time again.

· Business is business! I employ many of the policies and stipulations in my wedding contracts as I do in my commercial contracts. I state that the specified prices and charges pertain ONLY the photographic services and products that are specified in the contract. Other charges such as special packaging, shipping travel out of our service area, special insurance wavers, fees/licensees/ permits charge by local, provincial, federal or private companies in order to access gardens, parks or other properties are to be paid for by the client. We will either collect theses fees in advance or charge the clients back for them.

· Another approach is to raise your prices to accommodate such things as disproportionate insurance requirements from catering establishments. Those additional premiums are valid overhead operational costs and heave to be represented in your fees just like your rent, telephone and other expenses. Theses venues should have adequate public liability insurance of their own. I can’t see a photographer needing more than 2 million dollars worth. If the couple signed a “wedding contract” with their church, they are the ones who may have sabotaged your efforts and the will simply have to live with the limitations the have imposed on you. You should not be expected to fight with churches.

· Different couples and families have different priorities- some may place photography high up on the list and others may consider it a necessary evil and/or everything and anything in between. If couples want lots of photography at their ceremonies the need to find a venue which allows for that. If they prioritize their relationship with their church or synagogue then you are second fiddle and you just do the best that you can under the circumstances you are given to work with. I tend not to book weddings where I am too low on the priority list- I can live with a bit of difficulty but I don’t go the weddings too pull teeth for every shot and spar with the church folks.

· Last resort! Thankfully, I have seen only a few cases where church or hall officials have exhibited totally outrageous behavior with me or my staff. Shamefully enough, there were a few that were totally hostile, confrontational, obnoxious and purposely uncooperative. All we did was refuse any and all work at these places- total boycott! We came to realize that workin at theses places were not profitable in the long run because having ourselves subject to the embarrassment in front of our clients and their guests could be seriously detrimental to our reputation. There were occasions where we were asked, on the spot, for kickbacks in a threatening manner. There were incidents where I had to threaten a person with violence if he continued to harass me in the middle of a reception. That got rid of him but there is always the danger of coming off as the bad guy in front of a church or hall full of people.

· Happily enough, the boycotting system worked after a time because other photographers and vendors began to do the same and eventually things changed.

Let me explain “outrageous”! There was a church in town that was run with the same warmth, hospitality and finesse as a military prison. They were especially hostile toward photographers. The clergyman there would get in my face- latterly get in my face and demanded knowing if I knew the rules, I would answer respectfully that I did indeed understand the rules and that I intended to stay within them. He would usually reply something like “I don’t like the way you said that” or something just as inane. Perhaps he detected the veins protruding from my forehead or the red in my eyes so he would walk away but he just HAD to lay some intimidation on every photographer.

One fine Saturday, I was working in that church with a great video crew. Theses were the nicest guys you could work with and their results were superb. They worked a two camera job with high grade broadcast quality ENG cameras (state of the art in those days) and they worked hard and inconspicuously. One of the guys took up a position so he could record the procession. With that, our favorite clergyman came down the aisle like a taxi with both doors open a purposely knocked the videographer off his feet sending the camera to the hard marble floor and cutting the poor guys cheek as it flew forward- all of this happening during the actual procession and ceremony. The injured videographer stood up, recovered his damaged camera, put is hand to his bleeding cheek and quickly left the church. The second cameraman stepped in immediately and continued taping.

There was a point in the service where everyone was engaged in quiet prayer when the sound of multiple emergency vehicles were heard. One police courser with flashing dome lights and sirens pulled up in front of the church and double parked alongside the limos. Another curser came to the side of the church and then came the paramedics with the large screaming ambulance. Seems they were responding to the 911 cell phone call from the videographer who said he had been assaulted, his property destroyed and he had been injured and that furthermore the perpetrator of all theses dastardly deeds was still on the scene in the church.

When the 4 policemen entered the church, wearing flack vests, hands on their gun grips and walkie-talkies blearing- they soon cooled their jets when the saw the ceremony in progress but cautiously walked toward the front of the church. Talk about distractions! I continued shooting as did the remaining videographer. There main part of the ceremony was over and the wedding party and the clergyman retired to the sacristy to sign the marriage certificates where one rather burly policeman was allready waiting. After the recessional, we proceeded to the reception but there was even more activity going on outside the church. Another wedding party was pulling in along with two unmarked detective units that were called in to investigate the assault.

The police charged the good reverend with a number of charges including assault causing bodily harm and were about to give him a desk appearance ticket allowing him to remain free but with the proviso that he would have to come into the police station the first thing Monday morning or risk arrest. The videographer was livid and insisted that the police take him into custody right on the spot. He remarked that tickets were for littering and folks who allow their dogs to poop on the sidewalk, not for those who cause bodily harm. So the good reverend was placed in handcuffs, read his rights and dragged off the police station. Meanwhile the detectives were questioning some of the guests as to what actually happened and this delayed the reception by 2 hours- the caterers was livid. The videographer was taken to the ER and given 14 stitches and was held overnight for observation to make sure he did not sustain serious neurological injuries.

What as mess! What a disservice to the wedding couple and their families. It got into the newspapers! There were criminal charges and private lawsuits by the video guys and the bride’s family. Many thousands of dollars later it all got settled quietly. In 51 years that is the first and last incident of that magnitude that I have ever seen go down at a wedding involving a photographer. After this incident things changed, new clergy were appointed and I go there all the time as a welcome guest.

Under normal circumstances, the quiet diplomatic way is always best. You have to come out as being the good guy or good gall and keep you reputation a patient and caring professional.

Ed

[Monterey Jack]

Wow Ed thats just insane. I hope all the suits were directed solely at the responsible person (the clergyman). I wonder if this guy was related to the goof we had when we were kids. Our whole family was kicked out because the minister wanted more for donations from us when we couldnt afford it (father's work was on strike at the time). When my grandma brought that up the minister went looney and raised his hand like he was going to slap her across the face, my dad and 3 of his brothers jumped between him and my grandma. Even after this nitwit was removed we never went back even though the new minister apologized and invited us back.

[littlegal]

Originally Posted by Ed Shapiro

This is an old and frustrating story. Again, I am not trying to brag but I have clocked in 51 years in the wedding photography business so let me help simplify things and put an end to all of the frustrations. I and my staff, over the years, have taken many approaches to solve theses problems so here are the ideas that worked and parties concerned; we- the photographers, the clients and the clergy.

Logic is one of favorite things, so before I become angry, fly off the handle or give myself and everyone else around me a nervous breakdown, I try to apply logic and common sense and figure out savvy and diplomatic ways of solving any problems that may arise- this usually works. So here are some of the logical components that go into solving the problem at hand.

· Since most wedding photography does not take place in our studios, it is important to realize that houses of worship and reception venues are our work places. You do not want to do anything to make you unwelcome in places where you earn your living. The best thing to do in order to preserve and maintain good relations with churches, synagogues, all manner of sacred places and hospitality venues, is to show respect, kindness, and willingness to cooperate with all the PEOPLE who dwell within those places. Yes! As Dave pointed out, they are people too.

· If there are rules which seem draconian or unfair or even of they there are none, I make it my business to see all of the clergy in charge of the various religious institutions, all the caterers, hall-keepers, hotel people and wedding planners that I will probably run into in our service area. If there are problems, I try to explain our business and operational ethics as photographers working at events at their venues. I always keep in mind that I will get more cooperation with honey as opposed to vinegar and approach everyone with a spirit of friendliness and cooperation. I find that when I extend my hand in friendship most people will react accordingly- what are they gonna do- throw me out? That has never happened.

· The succinct points I want to get across in all theses meeting is that we do not come into venues with the intention of being disruptive or intrusive. I explain that we are not totally invisible but do everything we can to maintain a low profile and will not jump alter rails or stand between the couple and the clergyperson or official who is conducting the ceremonies. We also assure the clergy that we are not in the business of using Holy Sacraments or sacred ceremonies to gain profit. I inform them that we charge our clients the same rates even if we never enter the church. Our only goal, in terms of the ceremony, is to capture all the religious aspects of the wedding for clients who desire to have such images in their wedding albums and without theses images, some feel the photographs reflect nothing more than a big party. I have secured so much cooperation with this explanation that it oftentimes amazes me.

· Many clergypersons confided that if only the photographers would just ask permission and familiarize themselves with their rules and feelings on the matter, they- the Clergy, would be more accommodating.

· With reception folks- I assure them that they can expect total cooperation from us and explain some of the cooperation that we will need when working at the venues. It is important that we don’t get in the way of their serving staff when they are at their busiest and take every safety precaution as to the placement of our equipment. Over the years I can say that we get the utmost cooperation from all the food service and hospitality people that we have worked with.

· Listen up good photographers- Having altercations, feuds or doing battle with religious institutions has got to be the worst kind of public relations or public image you can garner short of being an axe murderer. DON’T DO DAT!

· In a perfect world, the aforementioned policies will work all the time, but it ain’t a perfect world that we live in. You will run into people in authority who are intransigent and even downright nasty and who will refuse to even see you- so what do you do? The first thing I do, when I find out that I am severely limited as to the ceremony coverage, is to talk to the wedding couple and find out their take on the matter. Surprisingly enough, nowadays many couples are not all that interested in the ceremony and tell me that the only reason they are having a religious wedding as opposed to a civil one, is out of respect for their parents and a few shots from the back of the church would suffice. Why get into a tizzy about that? Just stick to the rules and forget about it. If the couple wants to go off on a tirade with their church people- that is their business- it is up to them to acquire some kind of dispensation or permission! If they ask you to break the rules, DON”T! They may never go back to that venue again but you have to work there- perhaps time and time again.

· Business is business! I employ many of the policies and stipulations in my wedding contracts as I do in my commercial contracts. I state that the specified prices and charges pertain ONLY the photographic services and products that are specified in the contract. Other charges such as special packaging, shipping travel out of our service area, special insurance wavers, fees/licensees/ permits charge by local, provincial, federal or private companies in order to access gardens, parks or other properties are to be paid for by the client. We will either collect theses fees in advance or charge the clients back for them.

· Another approach is to raise your prices to accommodate such things as disproportionate insurance requirements from catering establishments. Those additional premiums are valid overhead operational costs and heave to be represented in your fees just like your rent, telephone and other expenses. Theses venues should have adequate public liability insurance of their own. I can’t see a photographer needing more than 2 million dollars worth. If the couple signed a “wedding contract” with their church, they are the ones who may have sabotaged your efforts and the will simply have to live with the limitations the have imposed on you. You should not be expected to fight with churches.

· Different couples and families have different priorities- some may place photography high up on the list and others may consider it a necessary evil and/or everything and anything in between. If couples want lots of photography at their ceremonies the need to find a venue which allows for that. If they prioritize their relationship with their church or synagogue then you are second fiddle and you just do the best that you can under the circumstances you are given to work with. I tend not to book weddings where I am too low on the priority list- I can live with a bit of difficulty but I don’t go the weddings too pull teeth for every shot and spar with the church folks.

· Last resort! Thankfully, I have seen only a few cases where church or hall officials have exhibited totally outrageous behavior with me or my staff. Shamefully enough, there were a few that were totally hostile, confrontational, obnoxious and purposely uncooperative. All we did was refuse any and all work at these places- total boycott! We came to realize that workin at theses places were not profitable in the long run because having ourselves subject to the embarrassment in front of our clients and their guests could be seriously detrimental to our reputation. There were occasions where we were asked, on the spot, for kickbacks in a threatening manner. There were incidents where I had to threaten a person with violence if he continued to harass me in the middle of a reception. That got rid of him but there is always the danger of coming off as the bad guy in front of a church or hall full of people.

· Happily enough, the boycotting system worked after a time because other photographers and vendors began to do the same and eventually things changed.

Let me explain “outrageous”! There was a church in town that was run with the same warmth, hospitality and finesse as a military prison. They were especially hostile toward photographers. The clergyman there would get in my face- latterly get in my face and demanded knowing if I knew the rules, I would answer respectfully that I did indeed understand the rules and that I intended to stay within them. He would usually reply something like “I don’t like the way you said that” or something just as inane. Perhaps he detected the veins protruding from my forehead or the red in my eyes so he would walk away but he just HAD to lay some intimidation on every photographer.

One fine Saturday, I was working in that church with a great video crew. Theses were the nicest guys you could work with and their results were superb. They worked a two camera job with high grade broadcast quality ENG cameras (state of the art in those days) and they worked hard and inconspicuously. One of the guys took up a position so he could record the procession. With that, our favorite clergyman came down the aisle like a taxi with both doors open a purposely knocked the videographer off his feet sending the camera to the hard marble floor and cutting the poor guys cheek as it flew forward- all of this happening during the actual procession and ceremony. The injured videographer stood up, recovered his damaged camera, put is hand to his bleeding cheek and quickly left the church. The second cameraman stepped in immediately and continued taping.

There was a point in the service where everyone was engaged in quiet prayer when the sound of multiple emergency vehicles were heard. One police courser with flashing dome lights and sirens pulled up in front of the church and double parked alongside the limos. Another curser came to the side of the church and then came the paramedics with the large screaming ambulance. Seems they were responding to the 911 cell phone call from the videographer who said he had been assaulted, his property destroyed and he had been injured and that furthermore the perpetrator of all theses dastardly deeds was still on the scene in the church.

When the 4 policemen entered the church, wearing flack vests, hands on their gun grips and walkie-talkies blearing- they soon cooled their jets when the saw the ceremony in progress but cautiously walked toward the front of the church. Talk about distractions! I continued shooting as did the remaining videographer. There main part of the ceremony was over and the wedding party and the clergyman retired to the sacristy to sign the marriage certificates where one rather burly policeman was allready waiting. After the recessional, we proceeded to the reception but there was even more activity going on outside the church. Another wedding party was pulling in along with two unmarked detective units that were called in to investigate the assault.

The police charged the good reverend with a number of charges including assault causing bodily harm and were about to give him a desk appearance ticket allowing him to remain free but with the proviso that he would have to come into the police station the first thing Monday morning or risk arrest. The videographer was livid and insisted that the police take him into custody right on the spot. He remarked that tickets were for littering and folks who allow their dogs to poop on the sidewalk, not for those who cause bodily harm. So the good reverend was placed in handcuffs, read his rights and dragged off the police station. Meanwhile the detectives were questioning some of the guests as to what actually happened and this delayed the reception by 2 hours- the caterers was livid. The videographer was taken to the ER and given 14 stitches and was held overnight for observation to make sure he did not sustain serious neurological injuries.

What as mess! What a disservice to the wedding couple and their families. It got into the newspapers! There were criminal charges and private lawsuits by the video guys and the bride’s family. Many thousands of dollars later it all got settled quietly. In 51 years that is the first and last incident of that magnitude that I have ever seen go down at a wedding involving a photographer. After this incident things changed, new clergy were appointed and I go there all the time as a welcome guest.

Under normal circumstances, the quiet diplomatic way is always best. You have to come out as being the good guy or good gall and keep you reputation a patient and caring professional.

Ed

Holy Cow Ed! I've seen some hateful clergy, but I've never been assaulted by one of them. Wow!!!!!!!!!!!

As I understand it, the North is way more tolerant than the South regarding church rules, although I also understand that the Southern inhospitality to photographers is starting to filter in up there.

And you are right....it all starts with photogs who act crazy or disrespect rules. But the sad part is that most time, one bad apple kills it for the rest of us. Like I said, I go to the rehearsal, ask the rules, and abide by them even if they are nuts. I don't know if you remember this, but I had a whole tanty about having to shoot from a hole in the wall, behind a church, ON A STEPLADDER. Talk about making the job completely impossible. Anyhoo, you have to admit that some of these folks are just hostile, and it's getting worse by the day.

[Ed Shapiro]

Yeah C- Some of them are indeed crazy! It has been up here for years as well. I did not intend my post to turn your thread into a clergy bashing thread but some of them do deserve a good what-for!

I once got so angry that I asked a nasty clergyman what the difference is between some ministers and God. He was taken aback- BIG TIME and it got worse when I delivered the punch line; God knows that he is God but some minister only think that are God! Well I have mellowed with age.

Take my advice- the key words in this situation is COMPENSATION- MONEY! Hazard pay- call it what you like! Charge more money to compensate you for additional expenses, insurance wavers, and additional aggravation. Look at it this way, your lawyer will charge more for a complex litigation than filing some routine papers to incorporate your business. You need to charge more for having to put up with all kinds of guff when you are out on the job. You need to be compensated for prints sales that you are never gonna get because you were not allowed to make those photographs in the first place.

You also have to make it known that you ain't gonna be climbing stepladders and shooting through holes in the wall any time soon. What are you as stunt woman? No, you are a PROFESSIONAL photographer and you needed to be treated as a professional and given certain courtesies- if not- you are not taking certain jobs. Or- fine- if you have to go up a ladder and shoot in dirty or dusty conditions you need to be compensated in that you are going to bring in an additional assistant to "foot" the ladder and you are going to need to wear a protective smock so that you can continue on to the reception in clean clothing. If you don't ask- you won't get.

Carry on brave lady!

Ed

[DAVE PROUTY]

Littlegal,

I'm sorry I bothered to give you a view from a different angle on the situation. You obviously are dead set on doing this thing with the website. As I said at the end of my reply, I understand how you feel.

As for walking in the shoes of a wedding photographer, I have, and experienced clergy that did all those nasty things to us photographers myself. Maybe even a few things you haven't experienced. So stop with the bashing me. I am not out to get you. In any way, shape, or form.

If your website "blacklist" works, I have backup fuel for a comment I made in another thread that Mark McCAll chided me on (and probably rightfully so!). But, HEY, you get no more argument from me.

I wish you luck in your business. I really do.