Preview Book question?

[kenn]

If you have a lab print your Preview (proof) book, what would you think a resonable turn around time should be ?

If you are using a preview book, are you using the spiral bound or a hard cover book ?

What is a resonable turn around time from day of shooting to previews in a brides hands ?

[Songman45]

There are many factors impacting the turn-around time for a proof book, included but not limited to: media (film or digital) and type and style of the book itself, whether the lab is local or mail order. You are wise in wanting to get that proof book back in the couple's hands soon after the wedding as possible. You want to deliver right away as soon as they return from the honeymoon. You also don't want them holding on to it long. The emotion of the moment fades fast and the priority of photography budget declines as soon as the first round of household bills come in. Strike while the iron is hot, they used to say.

[hotrod4x5]

I don't offer proof books, but when I shot film, a common turn around of proofs was 4-6 weeks. Seems like an eternity now in the age of digital, I know. I think 2-4 weeks seems reasonable to me. Gives you 1 week to work on the images, and another 1 or 2 weeks for the lab work.

[Mark McCall]

Ken,
Not telling you how to run your business, but proof books will kill your sales.
People do not eat when they aren't hungry.
By showing proofs (in any printed form), your clients are eating from the buffet for free. Every time they see the proofs, the sentimental value drops, taking your sale along with it.

Invest in a portrait session with Olan Mills.
Allow them to shoot your portrait, then sit through the sale session. Talk about applied education!

[hotrod4x5]

Originally Posted by Mark McCall

Ken,
Not telling you how to run your business, but proof books will kill your sales.
People do not eat when they aren't hungry.
By showing proofs (in any printed form), your clients are eating from the buffet for free. Every time they see the proofs, the sentimental value drops, taking your sale along with it.

Invest in a portrait session with Olan Mills.
Allow them to shoot your portrait, then sit through the sale session. Talk about applied education!

Mark, I am guessing the alternative is an in studio review?

[Mark McCall]

Absolutely.

Proofs should never leave the studio.

Almost every studio owner I know uses projection for client preview.

Olan mills still does hard copy proofs, but you leave with nothing....unless you buy it.

[kenn]

Originally Posted by Mark McCall

Ken,
Not telling you how to run your business, but proof books will kill your sales.
People do not eat when they aren't hungry.
By showing proofs (in any printed form), your clients are eating from the buffet for free. Every time they see the proofs, the sentimental value drops, taking your sale along with it.

Invest in a portrait session with Olan Mills.
Allow them to shoot your portrait, then sit through the sale session. Talk about applied education!

I have seen an Olan Mills session, As a matter of fact I worked with them as a Territoral Manager for their School Division in the early 90's. I agree with the projecting of previews, I guess I still haven't figured out an easy way with weddings.This wedding has 522 previews In this case, the couple wanted a proof book, they were also charged accordingly.

The whole problem that I was and am dealing with, is that I thought this place was a major lab,( not so sure now) produces coffee table books etc.... advertises that they have some big name famous wedding photographer etc.. On there proof album page had a hard cover photo proof album and below the description in bold print. is the line ..Usually Ships within 3 Business days... So I submit the order (5/21) and the digital files,and order is received. The next day I check to make sure that the order is ok and recieved, I have an order number and out beside it is estimated ship date of 6/15, 3 weeks, and add another 5 day for shipping so it is total of 22 business days.

It just made me mad and when I called, Customer no service at first stated that turn around time was 10 to 15 business days, When I pointed out that the site stated 3 days thay stated that they were having some problems at the printing plant. So I had been curious as if anyone else was using proof books and what the turn around time had been.

Mark,
Usually for weddings that I have photographed, the couple pays a flat fee and they get a preview book and then choose whatever the agred upon number of photos they want for their album. I do project the enagement photos and if we do a Bridal portrait before hand. Is a website better than a proof book for selecting album photos ?

[Mark McCall]

Originally Posted by kenn

Is a website better than a proof book for selecting album photos ?

No.
Repeated viewing of the proofs kills their sentimental value, regardless of whether they're seeing a proof book or in an online gallery.

I'm still amazed that there are some photographers are still using a proof method on weddings.

I think we lose the impact of the flush mount album design when the bride sees proofs first.

[hotrod4x5]

Originally Posted by Mark McCall

No.
Repeated viewing of the proofs kills their sentimental value, regardless of whether they're seeing a proof book or in an online gallery.

I'm still amazed that there are some photographers are still using a proof method on weddings.

I think we lose the impact of the flush mount album design when the bride sees proofs first.

Do you shoot weddings? I am just curious how long it takes to show a bride and groom 4-500 images on a projector. Do you sit with them for hours and hours while they decide?

I guess I am a little confused on how to present several hundred images, if not proofs, or an online gallery? Time is money, what if a bride wants to sit and look at her images for 6 hours, do you block out that time in your studio?

[Mark McCall]

Originally Posted by hotrod4x5

I am just curious how long it takes to show a bride and groom 4-500 images on a projector. Do you sit with them for hours and hours while they decide?

You are correct. It would take alot of time to proof that many images with a projector.
But we were not talking about weddings specifically.

Soft proofing with a projector is perfect for engagment sessions, bridal sessions, family or children sittings. But not with weddings. There's simply too many images.
Again, your correct, time is money.

Delivering a wedding proofless (turn-key as some call it) is far more efficient than proofing.

I mentioned this in an earlier post:

Originally Posted by Mark McCall

I'm still amazed that there are some photographers are still using a proof method on weddings.

Shooting proofless means your not displaying proofs from the wedding.

Simply shoot the wedding, cull, edit, design the album.
It is important, however, to allow the bride to see the design of the album, as changes can't be done after the fact.

Your the expert. The bride knows nothing about photography or album design. She hired you based on what you displayed, and hopefully, what she's heard about you from other wedding vendors.
She will trust your judgement....UNLESS....your considered a budget photographer in her eyes. If that's the case, no matter what you say, she won't respect you, or trust your judgement.

Where I think alot of photographers get mixed up is that they'll take 3, 4 or 5x more photos with digital capture than they would have with film.
Every shot adds to your workflow, yet yields no extra income.

[jfrancho]

Showing the couple several hundred images from a wedding will only frustrate them, trust me - I know. Pare it down to 100 or so. If they want a proof book, sell them a spiral bound flip book (a good lab can do this) of just those 100 or so, and deliver them at the same time as their print order. Get as much up front as you can.

I haven't done a ton weddings, but I've done enough to know that Mark's advice is right on the money, it saves time and frustration, and maximizes your order.

[Mark McCall]

Turn key album delivery means no proofs.
Bride sees her album online after it is designed and press ready.
She's allowed changes at $15 per.

During the initial consultation, we discuss how she'll see her images for the first time.
She's informed that everything we shoot goes into the album, with a few exceptions listed below, so there's no proofs to choose from.

We take out:
Blinks
Out of focus images
Images not flattering of the bride
Images that do not add to the story, (dancefloor with everyone's back to the camera)

That last item leaves the door open for interpretation.


We make it easy on ourselves by not shooting umpteen hundred photos at a wedding.
Besides, having to pick from hundreds of images only confuses the bride.
A confused brain will shut down, taking your sale along with it.

The bride doesn't remember what you shot, or when you shot it. The entire day is a blur to her. She will trust you.

Advantages of shooting turn-key:
One less meeting with the bride
Less time invested on your part
Faster album delivery
More money in your pocket

[Rodeoshooter]

Originally Posted by hotrod4x5

Do you shoot weddings? I am just curious how long it takes to show a bride and groom 4-500 images on a projector. Do you sit with them for hours and hours while they decide?

I guess I am a little confused on how to present several hundred images, if not proofs, or an online gallery? Time is money, what if a bride wants to sit and look at her images for 6 hours, do you block out that time in your studio?

Guys, I have to agree with Mark on this. We stopped showing "proofs" about 16 years ago. Our after package sales went from $0.00 to as much as $8,500. I have been carrying a $2200 average on after package sales on weddings for the past 10 years.

We found a couple of things out about weddings.
1. When you include everything in the package there is no incentive to buy additional items.

2. When the packages are too cheap they will not respect you and they will expect everything.

3. Proofs will cost you most of if not all of your after wedding sales.

We found when you first show the images the Bride loves ALL of them. If you send them out in a proof format the longer the Bride has the images the less she likes them. It is not the Brides fault but the longer she has them the more she will pick herself apart. We actually tried this on several weddings. Some we let go out with proofs others we did in studio viewings. The ones where we had the studio viewings we had tremendous sales. This convinced us to do away with any proofs.

We found sometimes the clients (seniors) would try to copy the proofs. The answer to all of this is studio viewings.

As to your question about do you block out that time in your studio. Do you like money? Yes, block out the time and prepare to sell images. Brides and grooms appreciate the time you will take. We always ask them to tell us which images they "don't like". This means everything they "don't throw out" means they must like it and therefore they want to buy it. Sell it to them! Time is money and you want to make money for your time.

We also tell them the first viewing is included with the wedding. We also encourage them to bring their parents and anyone else who wants to purchase photos. Additional viewings were $75 per hour. This keeps the viewings to one and encourages everyone to come to that first viewing.

Another way that has worked very well for us was to "lay out" an album using Art Leather album blank mats. I would go through the wedding originals (our name for proofs) and then using the mats I would lay out how I thought the final album should look. I would do each page in order and lay them on several 3 x 6 foot tables so the bride and groom could see how the album would look. I gave them instructions on what they could change and how much the album would be if they purchased it the way it was laid out. In over 3 years of doing this I have only had one wedding not upgrade to the album I laid out for them. We have also use montage to do the same thing with similar results.

[hotrod4x5]

Thanks for the thorough replies! There certainly are a lot of different ways to go about presenting a wedding.

Lots to think about and digest!

[kenn]

Mark one more questions, do you have just one price on your weddings or do you have different prices with the only differrence being the album