Swim team photos

[film2shoot]

I have been asked to take the swim team photographs for our local swim team. I have packages already made up but my question is should I charge the swim team officers for taking the photos. And do I give a percentage back to the swim team. The photographs would be like head and shoulders or full lenght like baseball or football photographs. Any Idea's or help would be great.

[Mr. Pickles]

I have heard that the way to "get" these deals is to "give back". So I would imagine that if you gave something back to the team itself, that it would go a long way in them liking you. Most towns support Football, baseball, basketball, and the rest kind of scrimp and scrape for funds to do what they need to do.

If you give the swimmers a break (in giving back tot he team), then I would certainly give the "coaches or officers" the same break...or more of a break.

just some random thoughts to get this going....

And this thread (in this same board) might get you some more info...
School sports/team photos?

[lilbit330]

Had the photographer for my swim team given back to us .. we may have used him again the next year .. I cannot remember how much he charged but i remember my mom and other parents complaining about prices ( I wish I could remember how much he charged ) .. He took decent pictures .. but definately not "worth" what he charged .. To me a photographer should only charge how well their pictures are .. But anyways .. Giving back to the team is definately an excellent idea :]

[Pixart]

Giving back totally depends on the size of the team. If it's 10 kids you can't be expected to give anything back, but if its a few dozen, or a "league" you are usually expected to. Make sure your language explains that it is a percentage of what you collect, less the taxes and possibly printing, and don't forget that it costs at least 50 cents each to package individuals (an envelope and a cheap folder). I've just been asked to present to a soccer league, and she said that "The guy last year gave 50 cents per kid and we bought new balls with it." 50 cents per sounds very cheap. Usually around 10%.

When I do schools (just small ones, 200 or less) I ask if this will be a fundraising opportunity and we discuss what percentage they would like to make (between 5-15% ususally). When Lifetouch comes to my kids school, for example - everyone knows that they give a kickback for the business - but they have also negotiated a several-year exclusive contract. It's not always expected, I presented to a dance school and they seemed quite shocked that some people use photo day as a fundraising opportunity!

[stuknbama]

I'm not sure who started all this "giving back", but it has been a dying thing over the past few years. Walmart won't pay you to shop with them........so why should we, as business people, have to give anyone anything for their business? I've done it in the past because it was the "norm", but I have also steered away from doing it. Most leagues will require a donation, but on a team per team basis, don't do it unless you just HAVE to. If you do this for a living you'll appreciate not having to do it...........if you're shooting it for fun, you might be keeping a person that makes his living from his photography from getting the work.

[TimAndrea]

tough questions as it all depends on the situation, town, and all. for me, I do a dance studio and give a percentage to the owner. i throw in a photoshoot for the teachers as a bonus.
as for walmart i think you are looking at it backwards. I dont pay the parents to take pictures of their kids just like walmart doesnt pay me to shop, but if i were to do business in walmart dont you think they would expect some money? and they are not just bringing one kid, they are saying here i have 300 customers for you i can give them to someone else or you can do their pics.

[stuknbama]

Tim,
The walmart idea you gave confuses me...........Don't you buy and receive a product from Walmart? As you leave with your products, there is nobody at the door handing you 20% back for shopping with them.................Make sense? The league can get someone else to do those photos, but if we, as a group of business people, would stop giving back, we would all make more money.............giving back is like the storeowners used to have to do with the Mob or face getting their stores trashed and themselves hurt or killed...........we shouldn't be forced to do that in order to do business.

[TimAndrea]

ok, say i have a store, a person comes in and buys a thingamabob for say $100. they ask for a discount and i say sorry, no discounts, then i have someone come in and say i would like to buy 400 of your $100 thingamabobs, can i get a deal? do you say no you have to pay full price? or another person comes up and says i like your thingamabobs, i think i can get you more customers than what you have now i already have 500 customers for your product and more in the future, if i go and sell these to new customers for you can i get a cut of what i sell? do you say no i can do it myself i dont want the extra business?

[northlander]

I'd say,"The thingamabobs are great, but what you need are the whatchamacallits. They're an upgrade."

[stuknbama]

Tim,
Your thingamabobs comparison still does not get what I am saying. I NEVER said that you can't discount.......(being the lowballer is not a good thing for the photography business either), but to give a % back is crazy (even though I know it's still a common practice) We'd be crazy, as business people, not to give a volume discount, but you have to decide if you're gonna be the nice guy and give a volume discount or be the victim that is strong-armed by a league director that demands that you will pay them a % back...........your volume goes directly to the parents of the kids, you'll never know where that "kickback" to the director goes............I saw one lose her 17 year old postion last year for requiring that her leagues photographer give a "kickback"............
As for the Walmart comparison's go, you can also look at it this way...........Walmart (let's pretend they are a huge photographic company) come to town and give huge volume discounts.......look around in a years time, all the "Mom and Pop" photographers are all closed and out of business.....did they give all their customers a big 20% kickback when the customers walked out of the store? Nope..........all they did was give a huge discount and closed the competition.....Now all the people getting photos are forced to get the same low quality products and are subjected to poor customer service. See, Walmart is the lowballing photographer........sweeping up business and also giving the legitimate photographer fits trying to keep his head above water in a profession that is getting tougher day to day to maintain. Give discounts for volume work, nothing wrong with it.......don't be strong-armed into giving up your profits just to get a job. Work cheaply and your work will be looked upon as cheap work. Hope some of this makes sense to someone out there.

[TimAndrea]

Yes, I do see what you are saying, we could probably go on and on about business and economics. if I was being strongarmed into something that was not profitable then i would let walmart do it. just like their are plenty of amature photographers, me included who will give their service cheaper than anyone because their end product is not as good. but i as a photographer will not lower my standards in order to compete. their are plenty of people out there that will pay good money for good work. if i do not do a good job of selling my product and tell them why they should pay more for what i offer than that is how business works. and you are right, walmart and other big companies have come in and made ma & pa difficult. that is why as a photographer we have to do things that seperate us from cookie cutting pictures. but if a second rate low balling work for nothing bad photographer takes the business you may not want that business in the first place

[stuknbama]

A colleague gave this advice a long time ago and it has been the thought that always passes through my head when a director asks me for a kickback...............the colleague said, "don't whore yourself out to get a job"..............It is so hard not to give in to the kickback and YES, I have done it and would give back now if it helps the organization, but it's best to give back to the parents in those discounts you mentioned.......I got locked into giving back by inheriting a league and the only way to get it was to honor the same deal that the fellow photographer that passed it to me had negotiated............it required the kickback..........never felt good about it, never felt it was on the up and up................So, I have done it..........It's just not the way we need to do business because in the end it hurts all of us. I've seen photographers offer huge kickbacks to get jobs only to realize that their "cost of doing business" included more than just processing costs and they ended up shooting a big league and making almost nothing for doing it............everybody loses when that happens..........Leagues start expecting a kickback, photographers are forced to shoot cheaper and in turn start getting prints at Sam's instead of a REAL lab, quality falls off......nobody wins............it's great to have photography as a hobby, but don't hurt a person that relies on it as the way they make their living........especially if you strive to make a living with it one day...........It's getting tougher each year because everyone has a camera these days and the public has been taught that a "LOW" price is the way to go..........THANK YOU WALMART............sooner or later someone will get back to the way of thinking that you get what you pay for............speaking of that, that is my .02...............and that's probably all it's worth. Good luck in your ventures!

[DD974]

Originally Posted by film2shoot

I have been asked to take the swim team photographs for our local swim team. I have packages already made up but my question is should I charge the swim team officers for taking the photos. And do I give a percentage back to the swim team. The photographs would be like head and shoulders or full lenght like baseball or football photographs. Any Idea's or help would be great.

I recently booked a local High School swim team that for years has used a local photographer that has deep roots in the community. I was asked by the Coach if I would provide free 8x10 team photos (3-JV & 3-Varsity) for all coaches, like the past photographer. I told him I typically give the coaches a 5x7 team photo for all my team shoots, and I wouldn't have a problem bumping that up to 8x10s.

What would someone else do?

[Songman45]

I think its become akin to "give em and inch and they'll take a mile". Call them rebates, kickbacks, participations, contributions; they've been around a while. It probably began as a kind gesture. Some well intentioned businessman felt kindness in his heart for some non-profit like the boy's club and made a contribution based on his sales. Decision makes began to seek out those who would cut them in on the action. For a while it was just expected and the kickback became a negotiation tool; who ever paid back the most got the job.

Gang its not limited to schools and team organizations. I know events who sell out to the photographer who will pay the highest percentage of sales. Sometimes the customers loose out because event management doesn't consider the quality of the photographs. Some times the event management looses because a high percentage of a low volume is less net than a lesser percentage on better volume, but 20% looks like a bigger number than 5%.

Maybe it will go away because its counter productive.

And for teams we gladly give the coach and (if there is one) the team mom a shot of the team.

[mobei]

Question:

What makes a photographer any different than other concessions that pay a percentage to sell at an event?
A percentage is the same as paying for event space.

[stuknbama]

I wouldn't think anything would make him different, but this was about doing photos for a team, not an event where you could use that percentage and build it into your overall business model when submitting to do the work.
Why are there so many that want to give their earnings away?

[Songman45]

Originally Posted by stuknbama

I wouldn't think anything would make him different, but this was about doing photos for a team, not an event where you could use that percentage and build it into your overall business model when submitting to do the work.
Why are there so many that want to give their earnings away?

Every team has an organization, like a league, a city parks dept, or a school. The organization seeks a cut of the sales. And the percentage has to be built in when you submit a bid offer.

Why are there so many that want to give their earnings away?
They don't want to. Its another figured in cost of doing business.

Steve