Pricing a Wedding Album

[KellyL]

Just checking in quickly. I will need to give all of this more thought this weekend. Thanks for the very thoughtful replies.

[waves]

Hey Kelly,
just wondering what you decided, I am trying to revamp some of my priceing in this same area, let us know

[Not4wood]

When I worked at the Studio, I had no exposure to the packages or pricing and when I wasn't printing (I was the proof printer and ran the B&W Darkroom) I was assembling the Albums. We had several choices of quality albums, and the Mounted Albums were always sent out. The Standard Packages at that time and I'm talking about the mid to late 70's were three albums. The two parent books usually had about 24 shots but they varied depending I guess on what they wanted to spend. It wasn't so much of how many pictures can you look at of the dance floor. It was who was in the shot, if they were old or a very close person/relative they wanted those memories to last a lifetime.

The Brides Book was the one true story of what had happened on that day and this book really told the story. One thing has been left out of this whole conversation about pricing and putting together these albums. I remember that the Bride and usually her mother as well were given the proofs with instructions and a sheet so they could choose which shots were picked and for which Albums. In those days, the Studio that I had worked for was a high priced place and we did top quality. We had so many repeat families that sometimes we felt as if it was Deja Vu with the same faces so they must have liked our work. I don't see this mentioned at any time for putting together the albums. Who chooses which shot goes in and where?? To answer this I would say that this is out of our hands and belongs to the families. Once these shots were chosen they would then come back with an appointment and one of the sales people would sit with them and help them make sure all the shots were going to look there best next to each other. We had several standard albums to choose from and I would assume that the prices varied with certain packages. You must have choices depending on how much they can afford and how big there famiies are. You don't want to price yourself out of the market either, but keeping in mind that having a Wedding Photographer is never A going to be cheap or B not a 5 minute job but a very long haul that will last several months of hopefull good business partnership. In those days of wet film, a normal wedding job could last anywhere from several months to a year depending on all factors involved. Wall hanging prints, extra prints, extra albums and so on are always where you make money. Especially if the initial purchase is one of the cheaper packages that was the bare bones.

Putting a price on yourself for your skill, knowledge/education, rent, employees, equipment, supplies, stock on hand for the paper, ink, album supplies and all the samples of your work. You must remember, even if you send out the work to be done by Vendors whether they are online or in the neighborhood you need something to show the perspective clients so they can see a sample of your work. Your client wont be paying for the whole list but just a percentage of each so you can survive. Even though the Wedding is only one day, these people are paying for a whole lot of work to be done like a contractor working on your house. Dont feel guilty about charging them for a fair share, but dont give away your work for free either.

Like I said at the beginning, I worked for the Lab during the week and we did Weddings on the weekends. Sometimes 2 and very rarely but there were times that I had 3 affairs to be at in one weekend. For arguments the Big One on Saturday afternoon/evening, Sunday Morning and then Sunday Evening. In the Prime Season, and this is way before the Videos came in we were very busy. The Videos didn't come in till the very late 70's to early 80's and they hurt the Still Wedding Photographer for a long time but the Videos are wearing off and the Still Wedding Books are making a big comeback. The clients know that the prices are going to be in the thousands usually starting at 3000-5000 I guess but again I haven't even thought of Weddings for so long and my knowledge is soo old even these might be so outdated that the packages might start a lot higher. LOL I haven't seen or even spoke to any of the family I used to work for I wouldn't even know if they are still in the same State and haven't retired for warmer pastures.

[tekdiver500ft]

Well, if you have 12 hours invested in putting the book together, then that is $240-$2400 just in your labor. Then add in the actual cost of the book (x1.4 for profit). Add these together. Add sales tax (6% here, so above number x1.06). this is your album price.

[KellyL]

After seeing the quality of the ASUKA book and watching my bride and groom druel, I have no problem charging what I feel is worth the book. I really undercharged. So many excellent points here. Thanks for taking the time.

[Mark McCall]

Kelly,
disclaimer.....this is my opinion, and nothing more...

The bride will invariably be looking over the price list of several photographers before she hires you. The photographer with the simplest price list will usually get more attention than all the others she's collected.

I feel the album should be included in your package price to the bride. We don't nickel and dime.
For $xxxx you'll get 5 hours coverage, album design and the book itself. All turn key.
For $xxx you'll get a mom's album

No proofs to pick from. We design the book with no input from the bride. See the album online before it goes to press.
Changes can be made to the design at $15 per. (without that clause, a bride will pick you to death).
Easy.

[Not4wood]

Originally Posted by Mark McCall

Kelly,
disclaimer.....this is my opinion, and nothing more...
<edited for space>...
No proofs to pick from. We design the book with no input from the bride. See the album online before it goes to press.
Changes can be made to the design at $15 per. (without that clause, a bride will pick you to death).
Easy.

I would say thats an interesting idea, how much time to you give the Bride to check out her album on the net before you go to the printers and edit out any changes?
I have one question for you that I have that keeps nagging me in the back of my head. One thing sticks out, that if there is a Photo of someone who the Bride would really like to see in the Album and since you don't know who this person is, wouldn't it be very highly likely you would miss this person? Doesn't the Bride get a chance to look all thru those proofs to see if there is anything she might want?

[kgphoto]

Originally Posted by tekdiver500ft

Well, if you have 12 hours invested in putting the book together, then that is $240-$2400 just in your labor. Then add in the actual cost of the book (x1.4 for profit). Add these together. Add sales tax (6% here, so above number x1.06). this is your album price.

With all due respect, I disagree. I think most photographers don't have any real idea what they should charge an hour, because they don't know the worth of themselves, the products and the services they provide.

You are not selling eggs here. Where each and everyone is the same and will taste the same and satisfy everyone's needs eggzactly the same for breakfast.

There is custom design, creativity, interpretation and appreciation of the final recipient. I don't care how much better a Mercedes is made, it will never be worth $100K or even $50K TO ME, to own one. Ditto the Ferrari's, Lamberginis and BMW's. I don't want to spend $200 per tire or oil change, not to mention the insurance, as well.

These books are full of memories and have typically a very small market. The "take the cost and add a markup and time charges" only apply to those things that are fairly universal and have a larger volume sale base because of it. Companies like Midas, can charge a set price for a muffler, since many cars use the same one, the same time and they have been at it long enough to fully know their costs, both in terms of salaries and overhead and profit. Photogs should, but most do not.

I like Mark's idea of buying the car (Album) without having to participate in all the particulars of it's construction. I bet there are many small images so few are missed from the final story. I understand why he want to avoid having them make a bunch of small decisions, but I would not like the $15 per image charge, if I were his customer. That would be enough to turn me away. This is exactly what Mark is hoping for, as why would he want to work with people who resist his system?

[Rodeoshooter]

Originally Posted by KellyL

I am having a difficult time pricing my wedding albums. (Coffee table style, digital layout) I have a thread in weddings discussing albums: Critique of Press Printed Book I Used for a Wedding Album

I have to consider the following elements:

Time of design.
Time to edit once bride sees product.
Time for prepping files for delivery to album company.
Cost of album.
Number of images in book.
Shipping.
Handling.
Tax.

The last album I created took about 8 hours to layout. I use YSI album design software and the book was 80 pages. Next, I needed to edit based upon bride's suggestions. So, editing, 2 hours, just to be safe. After laying them out, I had to prepare the files for the specific company I wanted to send it to...since each company has its own set of specs. This took another 2 hours. So I now have about 12 hours invested in the creation of this book.

Ordering, another 15 minutes.

Delivery to bride....

So...what is a fair price for this album?

$400.00 prep time
$1.00 per image used? (every image in the album will be an image that is not ordered)
Cost of album + 20% markup? This price drastically varies depending on the company used. Should retail be 40% markup, or as a friend in retail suggests, should I use keystoning on the product?
Shipping

Sample:

400 (labor) + 170 (images) + [110 to 360] (book) + 15 (s&h) = 945, sales tax: around ten bucks.

So is it fair to sell an 80 page album for $755 to $955.00 (depending on the company used?)

Thoughts?

Kelly,

I am new to the forums but have owned and operated a studio for the past 23 years. My studio (currently being moved by my host but will be back up tomorrow) website is Our Website Is Currently Being Moved and pricing is a pet peeve. I believe you need to look at the future because as a photographer the only retirement you will have is your profit you make today.

I have looked at your work and you have no reason not to charge for the quality of your product. In fact I think you are downright cheap. Kodak, when they used to send professional reps out to work with photographers used to tell us "If 66% of your clients are not complaining about your prices, you are underpriced". You pay the same prices I do for the product you purchase so why should you charge less than a quarter of what other photographers charge? Everyone says they can't charge what they want because the town they live in will not support those prices. Notice I said "everyone" says this! We photographers are constantly trying to reinvent the wheel. We start out giving our stuff away and then we figure out we are paying our customers and going broke so we finally start charging a more realistic price.

Kelly, I have found if you take the cost of everything involved with your work, day in and day out, month after month and figure out what it costs you to be in business (camera equipment, computers, website, office equipment, office supplies, insurance, phone, heat, light, rent, incidentals and last but not least YOUR WAGE) you will figure out your profit is not happening the way you think it is.

Another thing that happens with higher prices is Respect! Your clients will respect someone who charges more for their product even if it is not as good as your product. I had a photographer who studied under me for about 5 months who went down to Bend, Oregon and started her studio. She was charging $4 for her wedding 4 x 6's. She was always complaining about how the clients wouldn't pay attention to her at the weddings. I told her it was her pricing but she didn't believe it and finally closed her doors about a year later. She was very artistic and a competent shooter but couldn't get around the pricing issue. In fact there is another photographer in Bend (Anglins Wedding Photography) who is a friend of mine, who is at the other end of the scale. Jake charges over $2,000 for the same album you are describing and gets it all the time. People trip over themselves to book Jake and they drool over his VERY EXPENSIVE images. I had a wedding in November from California (I live in Washington state) who I sold a 20 page album to for $1,400. I threw in 50 originals (your proofs) for an additional $700, instead of the normal $20 each. Another example, Jake sells a 20 x 24 wedding canvas for $1,200 and you sell the same product for $350. Why? Because Jake is willing to put himself out for it. BTW I sell the same product for $950. We probably all pay the same price for the product so why do we charge so much more than you do? Because we are looking for max profit for our work instead of working for nothing.

You should take a look at your wedding pricing. You state in another reply that "but I don't see too many people selling them for $1.00, as you can't even print for that cost.", yet here you are giving your images away for "$1.00 per image used?". I would suggest you start at 10% less than your print price for the image in the album. The client is getting the same image, just not as a individual print.

I don't know what you are charging for a wedding 4x5, 5x7 or 8x10 but I will bet you are dropping your prices for each smaller size by about a quarter of what the larger size costs, just like your senior print prices. WHY? You spend as much time working on the
4x5, 5x7 as you do for the 8x10. The lab doesn't charge you $5 less for the 4x5 than the 5x7 or $5 less for the 5x7 than the 8x10 does it? The answer is NO they don't. So why do you?

If you are charging $10 for a 4x6, which I feel is much too low, why give that same image away for $1 because it is in the album. You are stealing money from yourself to work hard to put that $9 dollar loss into an album. Why sell the album when you make more money for selling the 4x6 and spend less time working on it. Hmmmmmm can I get you to work for me?

I hope I don't come across as being hard on you because I don't mean to, but then again you need to take a hard look at yourself. Don't work for nothing!

You do a great job, just get great pay for it.

I hope this helps you.

Al

[KellyL]

First of all, thank each and everyone of you for the respect you have shown me here. My confidence gains as you speak, and I am very pleased with those whom have taken the time to comment. I am just very grateful for your time and your investment in my knowledge.

The sentimental value of the image is priceless.

I am getting more and more people around here who are recognizing that I might have a talent for image making.

My life will soon be taking some major changes if the raves continue...and so will my price structure.

Mark...I think you are right. I need to get an album included in each package. And perhaps pair my packages down to three. I don't want to shoot $1499.00 weddings anymore. They aren't profitable.

YOu guys have given me so much to think about.

Thank you for including me in the brotherhood. I know that sounds sappy, but from where I am sitting, you guys are my heroes.

[Not4wood]

To All,

In construction there is the always problematic of pricing as well. There are people who will charge less and they are doing so as not to be unknowing they are just trying to undercut your prices so they will get the job and not you.

Whats funny about this is, that they also will complain the most about not making enough profits. By charging that much less a price they might get the job but they are getting the markup so they cant cover any of the losses when it does happen. There pricing structure is also so bad as to do damage to there own rep because there customers will complain or try to cut the prices down even further creating more heartache for them.

Its a Market limit to supply and demand. Everyone (customers) is aware of most of the costs, taxes, insurance and rent and are willing to pay a few dollars more for the same or slightly better product. But when someone is so blatantly trying to rip them off there is a saturation point of increasing prices and having a customer willing to pay that increase. After a while of increases past a certain point that slight too much increase will push your customers to your competition. A little bit of loss wont damage your income because the increase in charges will cover that. But too much customer loss and you will start to loose money in the long run.

So you dont want to undercut your own nose and not make a suffient profit to be able to last in this very highly competitive world. Goes for more then just photography just comparing to the other trades.

[ee50ok]

My 2p:

You are worth what people are prepared to pay..... If they are not prepared to pay a living wage then you are in the wrong business. Part two may have to be modified during the start up stage of any business or to launch a new product.

So if you take 12 hrs to build a wedding book charge what you'd like to be paid for those hours.....

I also agree with McCall; If the bride doesn't understand what she is getting for her money she won't employ you. Have a simple price list with key elements only here is an example:

Taking photos on the wedding day:
Service and After Service only (max 3 hrs) XXXX
Preparation (salon, at home) and service (max 5 hrs) XXXX
Prep, Service and Reception (max 7 hrs) XXXX
Prep, Service, Reception and Party (max 10 hrs) XXXX
The price above includes for a pre-event survey of the locations and discussions with your wedding planner and minister.


Sample prices per print:
8x10 XXX
10x12 XXX
etc etc

Album (X pages, Y images) XXXXX

The above are just sample prices. I will be pleased to tailor the service to your requirements, just call me for an informal chat about what you'd like to see.....


If needs be you could then have more complex price lists, but to be quite honest you can probably make it up on hoof after they have called you in for a chat.

[ee50ok]

Kelly, as per our previous exchanges: You are good enough to be a pro, so don't be frightened to charge a reasonable wage for your services.