Help me please!

[georgebellon]

Hello all,

Been awhile since i posted, have been quite busy. Anyways, I have recently been offered some freelance work, editing pictures for a local advertising company. This firm has a contract for creating an image catalog of approximately 8000 product items. They are shooting in their own studio and outsourcing most of the editing they need done. Basically what they are asking of me is to take the raw camera images and do all the dirty work so they are usable farther down the line. In other words, cutting out all the products from their white backrounds, color correcting, white balance, contrast and converting to .tiff. they have asked me to provide an estimate of a per picture cost i would charge them for all of this. What do you guys think is fair? they have been talking an estimated work load of between 8000 - 10000 images with the possibility of a full time position at a later date. Please help me out here.

[d2creative]

can you get an example of one of their shots?
This way you can get an idea of how long it will take you to do each one.
So if it takes you say 15 minutes to do one image, divide your hourly rate by 4 and there ya go. I would quote it on a per-image basis. $25/image or something like that.

[georgebellon]

Yes i have a meeting tomorrow and they are giving me a cd with some images on it as sort of a test to see if i can do what they need done. Doesn't seem like to difficult a job, just have no idea what a good rate would be. This company has apparently been trying to get this done for quite some time and sounds like they are having problems finding people that can do this correctly. I was told the last two people who were interviewed attempted to cut the images out from the backround with the magic wand . Anyways, thanks for the reply, appreciate it.

[phototakeouter]

This looks interesting - Hotgigs - Photo Retouching Hourly bill rates.

I'm not a member to see the detailed stats, but the graph is straightforward enough.

[phototakeouter]

Originally Posted by georgebellon

I was told the last two people who were interviewed attempted to cut the images out from the backround with the magic wand

You mean that's not how you're supposed to do it?

[georgebellon]

an update of current status on this job... they initially tried to low ball me with a statement that the budget covers $4 an image for editing, and after a bit of talking they said the cheapest quote they have gotten so far is $25 an image. I averaged about 45 min per image on the test pictures they gave me, with a drop on quality could get it down farther i think. Still in negotiations at this point, what do you guys think? Its a rather large contract with an estimated 8k - 10k images that need to be done.

[phototakeouter]

Taking a closer look here.

8000 images at 45 minutes per image works out to 6000 hours. Let's assume you work on this 50 hours a week (that's a full time job) that's 120 weeks. 120 weeks is 30 months, which is 2.5 years.

8000 images at $4 an image is $32,000. Can you survive for the next 2.5 years on a job paying you under $13,000 per year?

If not, I would be very wary of these people. As it is, you're already devoting time and resources to engage with them, if they're not being realistic you need to terminate the engagement sooner rather than dragging out a no win situation.

Sounds like these guys are looking for outsourced third-world rates. And I say that because I am in the third world myself, and I can see $4/image conceivably being a feasible rate. Of course then you'd have a team of mouse jockeys being paid $2-3 per hour, and they would have to churn out images in 15-20 minutes rather than 45.

One other bit of advice if you do end up accepting the job, try to negotiate a flat job rate based on a per image rate, rather than a straight per image rate. Otherwise they could force your per image rate down by promising thousands of photos, then only give you a couple hundred while looking for that third world solution.

...of course, if YOU can find the third world solution first, and win the contract yourself then outsource it, you could still end up winning.

[d2creative]

Originally Posted by phototakeouter

8000 images at $4 an image is $32,000. Can you survive for the next 2.5 years on a job paying you under $13,000 per year?

Bingo!
This is exactly why I said in my first post that you just need to take your hourly rate and figure how long it takes you to do each image. Otherwise it's not worth your time no matter how many images they have for you to do. You could probably get the time down to 30 minutes. I wouldn't do it for any less than $20/image.

[edleg]

My ramblings whilst I think outloud:

8000 images @ 30 minutes is still 2 man years of work. You would need help and or sub-contract it out to make it work. Unless you can get your workflow down to like 5 minutes each it will take way too much work. Like some one else said... get a flat rate job... say so much $$ ($15-$20each) for up to 2000 images delivered in xx weeks, then each set of up to additional 2000 images for additional $30K - $40K. Then find a way to either out source it to third world or get really good at it real fast. 8000 images is a huge catalog. Are these going to be edited down to a smaller number?

BTW can you post an image or go shoot a similar image so we can see how much work there is? If the images were shot properly I cannot see them taking much time ... depending on how big the final catalog image will be.

I did a 150 students on "green screen" for head & shoulders shots last year and it was not that much work for the ones that were properly exposed once I changed to a gray screen instead of green. First couple took me 30-45 minutes each. At the end maybe 5 minutes each including complexion retouch. I used tools built into PS CS2, but there are some third party software to do the extraction. Do a web search... some probably have trial downloads... even if the trial software left watermarks it would be ok for testing.

[georgebellon]

here are a few examples i was given and extracted... not the best setup from a supposed $60,000 studio. Am thinking i'm gonna let this go, they are way behind the power curve and wanting someone to come in and fix it cheap.

[270weatherby]

Looks to me that they want the cheapest option to fix they're short comings. If thats what they're $60,000 studio turns out why don't they fix them? They did blow 60 G's on god knows what. I think they've had problems finding someone not because they've been unable to find someone to do it right. But because they are unwilling to pay reasonably for the job they want done. Of course if they'd have shot those better there wouldn't be as much work needed. I some how doubt they used an actual studio for these shots anyway. Do any of you use styrofoam sheets as background? I chuckled after seeing the seemless white paper behind that.

[angelsfort]

OMG those are the sample images they sent you?? How can they even BEGIN to think that $4 an image is enough?? That's outrageous!

[d2creative]

Ummmm... yeah I'd probably quote $50 an image to deal with fixing that crapola.

Hey... maybe they were bluffing with the $25 lowest bid they told you about!
Ya never know.
If not, I wouldn't want to deal with it anyway. Let it go.

[Blinky]

Yep, they may say they have 8000 images but you can't count on it without a contract with a monthly billing schedule. $4 an image is possible using Chinese or Indian retouching houses.

You can get really fast with stuff like that, especially if they'll shoot a gray card in each frame. I once did 450 ribbon bows for a cheerleader catalog. the first ones took about 20 minutes per and by the end I was doing them in 5. I can't bear the look at hairbows anymore. The worst part was the photographer shot them with a filthy sensor on an underexposed white background which made the magic wand useless and the clone tool waaay too useful.

Personally I wouldn't touch those knockouts for less than $35 per image average. They may be spending $4 a shot to shoot them but you''re having to make up for the slipshod photography. Think about the pressure they may put on you by dropping off 200 shots and wanting them by the end of the week... you won't have time to do anything else.

[phototakeouter]

Originally Posted by Blinky

They may be spending $4 a shot to shoot them but you''re having to make up for the slipshod photography.

Well 10000 images at $60000 is only $6 per image, so you're not off by much.

That really is kinda scary. Now I see why it was taking 45 minutes per image.

[angelsfort]

sounds like you should quote high, with a min. $$ requirment... (have them put it in writing!!!) you must get so much work, or they pay you anyways...

that way, if they decide not to go with you... no big deal! And if they do agree to your terms, then you've done good! (you could even explain to them that the photographs were very poor quality and therefor difficult to manipulate... thus your high price)

[TonyK]

Like Blinky I can't begin to think what these folks were thinking. They are looking to low ball you because they may have spent too much already on the contract they are servicing.

The shots scream RUN from this job. It may very well be filled with heartache and unmet expectations. If you do this, be sure to have a GREAT contract, have it reviewed by a lawyer and set payments periods so you are not going to get shafted at the end of the project.

Good luck,