knew this wasn't going to end well...

[brian.austin]

Originally Posted by Mark McCall

.As for taking a wedding before your ready I'll say this:
ALWAYS take a job bigger than you.

I totally agree. I no longer shoot professionally but this advice holds for anything in life. You don't grow until you're challenged.

[astphotos]

Originally Posted by jennibarger

ok, well, "stuff like this" hasn't happened to me... i'm just really bummed and i'm hoping it doesn't turn into more. my husband says i should just put my foot down and be firm = this is what we agreed on, this is what you got, the end.

someone has suggested offering them a free quickie session with the grandparents that weren't photographed. i didnt even know who the grandparents were. nobody pointed them out. they weren't mentioned. argh! this is why i ask people for a list of photos they want taken. and nobody ever gives me one. they all say "oh, just the usual ones and then one over here, one over there..."

nobody wants to spend time talking stuff over with me, even though that's the only friggin way i'm going to know what they want. i'm lucky if my brides want to meet at all before the wedding. they're too busy.

this is totally because i work with middle to working class people. lol. i bet people doing luxury wedding photos don't have this problem as frequently.

At the moment, I don't do weddings anymore. Still, my comments apply to how I run my business, and a suggestion on how you should run yours. I do family and child photography mostly, and no matter what, NO session is planned until we have a sit down consultation. None at all. At my consults, I actually drive to their homes, discuss locations, clothing, makeup, bring samples of my product line, my price list and go through all expectations there. I'm providing a service to them, even if they invest a couple hundred or a few thousand, and treat them the same. I've had young couples just starting out with lower budgets who come to me later on when they are ready with their families, so things work out.

However, a while ago when I didn't meet with clients and just showed up, expectations are all up in the air, and that leads to a bit of chaos. This is why, even with a contract, you must meet the couples and discuss everything. One of the biggest things I learned long ago is that you run your business your way while providing the best service possible. You also must learn to say no, even if you need that money. There were times long ago when I did and it hurt to say no, but you then find the clients who are worth it, and actually value you. Even now, I have people who want to hire me like a trained monkey, want everything, don't even want photos edited by me, etc. I tell them I'm sorry, but I'm not the photographer for you. You should have gone with your gut, and understand, we've all been there.

If a bride contacts you and refuses to meet or discuss a wedding with you, then they are not your client. They are not valuing you and your time. I wouldn't have hired our DJ unless we ran through things to play, things not to play and other custom requests. The cake, we tried, discussed options and all that, again since this is custom work. Your work isn't fast-food, it's custom for an event, and needs to be planned for. There is a market for everyone, and you have to decide how to run your business.

That said, I would discuss with an attorney what you are technically responsible for and if you're covered. I offer an additional session for families if they don't absolutely love it, but I'm not doing weddings. Insurance (that errors and omissions) can cover you to get the grandparents dressed up with the couple again, but I would speak to a lawyer personally first. You don't need to threaten the couple, but just be clear of what you have done, that you've done more than you are required (from the sound of it), and what you are willing to do, if anything. Some people may never be happy though so just be proud that you did everything you could and move on once you follow through.

Best of luck
Anthony

[Naz]

Jenn- you said [[WHY indeed would I hold back on photos?! I'm not holding them for ransom. lol.]]

If he's accusing you of holding back and claiming 'breach of contract-' then He aand his attourney I beleive will have to be the oens to prove that you held back if they want a judge to rule in their favor- witghout any specific evidence that you held back, they have no case agaisnt you it would seem- all they have are accusations and inuendo unsupported by facts

[sjs]

My son got married a couple of months ago. Of course, I wanted to get and work with some pix, but I never ever thought of using somebody else's images. A thousand images? You did your job, and unless they paid you a couple of million dollars, don't blame yourself.

I think you got good advice from the others here; there is nothing I can add to that. Hope things work out for you.

~Sandee~

[Brinkster]

A few years ago I shot a reception for a couple who had already gotten married a few weeks before, in another city. This reception was for family/friends of the groom who couldn't attend the wedding. They told me they hoped these shots would come out because 10 days after their wedding, the original photographer handed them 2 photos and said that was all that came out. He then just walked away. (film based photos) BTW do you have a link to the posted shots?

[Mr. James]

jerryph said: Re: knew this wasn't going to end well... I'm sorry, I need to vent... I am not pointing to the OP, but generally, why are people with limited photography skills, limited equipment, limited experience even considering doing weddings? If you want to go not only broke but bankrupt... find that client that will ..........................

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

This is the best post I've ever read on this subject. It is thorough, complete, the "real work" and should be printed as a poster and put up on every would-be wedding worker's bathroom wall for daily meditation.

We photographers are artists at heart, and often businesspersons reluctantly. Wake up tomorrow with that mindset reversed totally and you have a chance of making money and avoiding a legal letter in the mail requiring your "received" signature. And then cringing every time the phone rings or you. The word "sue" is not a girl's name in this context. Sleep well at night and avoid tranquilizers. Weddings are one of the toughest photo businesses of all, if not the toughest.

[Mark McCall]

Originally Posted by Mr. James

We photographers are artists at heart, and often businesspersons reluctantly. Wake up tomorrow with that mindset reversed totally and you have a chance of making money and avoiding a legal letter in the mail requiring your "received" signature. And then cringing every time the phone rings or you. The word "sue" is not a girl's name in this context. Sleep well at night and avoid tranquilizers. Weddings are one of the toughest photo businesses of all, if not the toughest.

Am I correct in assuming you feel only seasoned, skilled, educated and talented photographers accept wedding assignments?

If that's so, what's a budget client to do?....one who can't afford the fees of such a person?.... or one who just wants documentation, not necessarily art?

Everyone starts somewhere.
I had none of the above listed criteria when I shot my first wedding, nor was I compensated as I if I had.

I don't feel upstarts should be held from doing weddings, or any other type of work. The skill set and talent level is between the client and the photographer.

[jerryph]

Originally Posted by Mark McCall

Am I correct in assuming you feel only seasoned, skilled, educated and talented photographers accept wedding assignments?

I know the quote was not meant for me, but, yes, I do strongly feel that an incompetent photographer has no place at a wedding. Perhaps "incompetent" is a strong word, but let me at least qualify it by saying that any photographer that doesn't have the requisite hardware and skills to properly shoot at a wedding, a once in a lifetime event, in the manner that it deserves... is deemed incompetent for that situation. Not completely useless as a photographer... but useless for THAT event.

There are many ways to become "seasoned, skilled, educated and talented photographers" without tramping through a wedding using it as your personal practice session! Weddings are NOT places to learn the basics, they're not the place to practice. Shoot your friends, family, shoot as a second photographer with a GOOD wedding photographer, but DON'T penalize the bride and groom's once in a lifetime event that for them up to that point, is the most important time in their lives!

Originally Posted by Mark McCall

If that's so, what's a budget client to do?....one who can't afford the fees of such a person?.... or one who just wants documentation, not necessarily art?

I am constantly amazed at how many good photographers there are out there that work for little to no amount.

This year, I was blessed with being able to break into the $10,000 wedding level 5 times, but twice this year already, I did 100% free weddings and targeted couples that are specifically at the low or even "no" budget level. I worked as hard for them as I did for the $10,000 weddings.

There are also many people out there who are strong in their photographic foundations that are fully capable of doing a wedding, that have mastered the basics, mentored with a proper experienced photographer and/or worked their butts off, and are ready, but need to build a portfolio and these people will work for little to nothing. Just because someone has no budget, does NOT mean that there isn't a *good* photographer out there for you. What I am vehemently against is the newbie with the $500 dSLR that they bought from Future Shop last week and wants to shoot his friend's wedding this coming weekend. Ugh!!

Originally Posted by Mark McCall

Everyone starts somewhere.

As mentioned we all start from somewhere, and that somewhere is always ZERO, and we all work upwards from there. The question is... at what point is one able to do justice to a client? Well, if that client is a senior looking for 10-15 facebook photos, that level is a lot different than from that couple that wishes to celebrate the binding to each other for the rest of their lives via a wedding.

Originally Posted by Mark McCall

I had none of the above listed criteria when I shot my first wedding, nor was I compensated as I if I had.

I don't feel upstarts should be held from doing weddings, or any other type of work. The skill set and talent level is between the client and the photographer.

... and when that photographer hands over 4 blurry photos as the sum total of his work, are the bride and groom deserving of this, even if it was for done all for free? Cost of payment should not equal quality of the execution. Just because you found a "free" photographer is not an excuse to receive poor results in return.

I am not saying you did that, but I know quite a few couples, myself included, that were victimized as such and received total CRAP for moneys paid.

There are many places and many ways that a photographer can "start" from, but the facts are that most people start because they have these big stars in their eyes and are blinded to the fact that they think they can make lots of money fast and easy and their mother's told them that they make really pretty pictures. Where do they want to start? Weddings.

An "upstart" as you say (I like that term), does not have to be incompetent, if they are going to be doing weddings, they'd damn well better be ready to deliver nice photos for the couple, irrespective of the price paid.

Weddings take a greater than average level of skill, finesse and yes, expensive hardware too, to do properly. If that was not true, you and I would be out of a job fast or perhaps neither one of us would need to work as hard as we do to get to where we are... why would we need to waste all those hours bettering ourselves, why waste tens of thousands of dollars in equipment if it was not needed?

I cannot think of any photographer world wide that did not start from zero, but to ask that photographer to start off by doing weddings without proper guidance and preparation... big mistake... HUGE. And who pays the price? Not the photographer, he moves on to his next victim... it is the bride and groom that must live with that crap... for the rest of their lives.

Not very fair, is it?

[Mark McCall]

Jerry,
Just so we are on the same page....
Are you saying a photographer should get educated, buy some pro equipment, get lots of experience before they shoot a budget wedding?

[Mr. James]

[QUOTE=Mark McCall;1674163]Am I correct in assuming you feel only seasoned, skilled, educated and talented photographers accept wedding assignments?
--No. I said nothing about that assumption.

If that's so, what's a budget client to do?....one who can't afford the fees of such a person?.... or one who just wants documentation, not necessarily art?
--Many more poor folks get married than well-to-do ones. They want photos and should have them. And at lower fees or just gratis, and without any leather photo albums.

Everyone starts somewhere.
--Of course. We all start by having someone take a chance on us, in any field.

I had none of the above listed criteria when I shot my first wedding, nor was I compensated as I if I had.
--That's as it should be. And is probably true of most here. And true of any field.

I don't feel upstarts should be held from doing weddings, or any other type of work. The skill set and talent level is between the client and the photographer.[/QUOTE]
--Yes, of course. Upstarts, the unskilled, and anyone with a camera should feel free to do the job if asked. This is America and licenses are not needed for this type of difficult work. My neighbor can start up as a haircutter if he wishes, and charge nothing or a dollar, same as they do with student barbers at the barber college or on the streets in China and India. I have no problem with that as long as he disinfects his equipment and doesn't over-represent his skill and experience.

But I posted in the interests of photographers who are upstarts, beginners, yet operate without written expectations and defined product, verbal agreements, no insurance as per your own prudent suggestion, yet who do take money for producing results that may not turn out as per expectations. And often these same beginners have dollar signs in their eyes and use business cards or other advertising and blue-sky talk to set up expectations in the client that they will be getting great results at below market rates. If the beginner underpromises, has everything in writing, and doesn't overstate his skills and experience, then all will probably be fine. Except from those swindlers, poor or rich, who like to stiff people they hire.

BTW, it never hurts to have a strong disclaimer and "save harmless" paragraph in the written agreement, does it? The business world does it all the time and I do too. Most people don't even read it. Even bolder, the other day I saw a clause in the agreement for a satellite music delivery service that many have in their autos or at home, which states that fees and terms are subject to change without notice. Now that's brass! Their contract reads one-way: not what they will do for me, but all the things they can do to me or avoid. Cell phone contracts I've seen are about the same.

Maybe it's only in certain parts of the country but some people are litigious at the drop of a hat. Protect yourself, it's not hard.