Why is it frowned upon to offer a cheaper service?

[Ed Shapiro]

gryphonslair99


That is the best thing I ever downloaded from the Camel- it is worth every second that I ever posted here- a gift for sure! I got in a few hours ago and just stopped laughing my sides off.

Thank you my friend! I will come to play all the time!

Ed;

[ward5311]

As Mr. Shapiro has stated, I left another site because it became chaotic. Verbal jousts, name calling, threats, posts on religion and/or politics that turned into a flaming mass of insults. I haven't been here long but I am learning from some great folks who know much more than I. I sure hope that there is good moderation here, if not this site becomes the same as the one I left. I have enough drama in my life and come here to escape. I also wonder how so many pros have enough time to carry on like this in any forum. I would think you'd be in studio or on location. Just my .02. Peace.

[stef@apl]

Originally Posted by Songman45

Is my math correct? Gross Profit Margin: Cost=C Selling Price=S GPM=P

P = (S - C) / P

I think you meant P = (S-C)/S

If a candy bar costs a store $.33 and the store sells the candy bar for $1.00 the GPM for the candy bar is 67% The retail markup is 300% or 3 times the cost.

I think people mistake markup and gross profit.

Steve

You are correct.

Basically, it's the percentage of the total sale which is profit. So, if something is $500 and cost a total of $50 including labor/parts/overhead, 90% of that is profit. Most people get much lower profit than that, though, in the 20-30% range.

[Ed Shapiro]

Ward!

Here’s the real deal-

This site is very well moderated and administered. When troublemakers are detected they are dealt with, first by warning and then by suspension and finally banning. Nobody likes doing that but it has happened. Most folks here are good people and are here to teach, learn, share and have fun. There are arguments but they are usually friendly and so called “flame” wars do no last very long around here. This one may be an exception- a sense of humor helps!

My advice- Don’t look a gift horse in the mouth! Not everyone here is a professional but many amateurs are very knowledgeable and take time to help as well. Some of the crew here just wants to have fun and enjoy their photography as a hobby. I guess that most of the photographers here are not full time pros- professionals are in the minority so their input should be appreciated and not criticized or minimized. The fact that they take time out to participate here is a good thing and believe me; they are not slacking off at their businesses. We do have breaks in the day and time off and we are not on location or in the studio 24/7. I do most of my posting late at nigh, at home or in my office when I finish my paperwork.

All on line forums from basket weaving to antique collecting to gardening have some folks who behave badly because anonymity sometimes breeds acting out. Many folks do have drama in their lives and take it out on others in their forum persona. Escaping here is a good thing as long as everyone is kind and courteous and there is nothin wrong with good natured differences of opinion.

The benefits you receive from the forum is proportional to what you put into it. I come here because I enjoy teaching and learning.

Enjoy the forum and participate.

Ed

[Paws]

Originally Posted by Songman45

Is my math correct? Gross Profit Margin: Cost=C Selling Price=S GPM=P

P = (S - C) / P

If a candy bar costs a store $.33 and the store sells the candy bar for $1.00 the GPM for the candy bar is 67% The retail markup is 300% or 3 times the cost.

I think people mistake markup and gross profit.

Steve

So, Gross Profit Margin = (Selling Price - Cost) / Gross Profit Margin?

I think there's an incorrectly defined variable in there.

And you're correct, my math was for markup. Gross Profit Margin is:

GPM = (Revenue - COGS)/Revenue.

COGS = Cost of Goods Sold.

So, the math would be GPM = (1.00 - .33) / 1.00 = .67. So your math is correct on that. Applied to your other assertion it would be:

GPM = (500 - 50) / 500 = .90.

I stand corrected, having mistook GPM for Markup.

Thanks for the correction.

[ward5311]

Originally Posted by Ed Shapiro

Ward!

Here’s the real deal-

This site is very well moderated and administered. When troublemakers are detected they are dealt with, first by warning and then by suspension and finally banning. Nobody likes doing that but it has happened. Most folks here are good people and are here to teach, learn, share and have fun. There are arguments but they are usually friendly and so called “flame” wars do no last very long around here. This one may be an exception- a sense of humor helps!

My advice- Don’t look a gift horse in the mouth! Not everyone here is a professional but many amateurs are very knowledgeable and take time to help as well. Some of the crew here just wants to have fun and enjoy their photography as a hobby. I guess that most of the photographers here are not full time pros- professionals are in the minority so their input should be appreciated and not criticized or minimized. The fact that they take time out to participate here is a good thing and believe me; they are not slacking off at their businesses. We do have breaks in the day and time off and we are not on location or in the studio 24/7. I do most of my posting late at nigh, at home or in my office when I finish my paperwork.

All on line forums from basket weaving to antique collecting to gardening have some folks who behave badly because anonymity sometimes breeds acting out. Many folks do have drama in their lives and take it out on others in their forum persona. Escaping here is a good thing as long as everyone is kind and courteous and there is nothin wrong with good natured differences of opinion.

The benefits you receive from the forum is proportional to what you put into it. I come here because I enjoy teaching and learning.

Enjoy the forum and participate.

Ed

Well ok Shapiro...Here's the real deal...You leave me a little confused. How am I looking a gift horse in the mouth? I do contribute when I know what I'm saying is helpful. I'm glad we have pros here, but this thread contains some non-professional comments. BTW real "Pros" don't go around with their chests puffed out on a forum..they are too busy.. I am a little baffled by your comments but I'll just take them in good spirit. Peace.

[Ed Shapiro]

Hey Randy! Good question and thanks for your reply.

The point I want to make is that on this and many other photo-forums NOT everyone is a professional photographer. Some of the childish or unprofessional remarks come form professionals and non professionals alike because some of them are basically rude and don't know how to commutate in a friendly, informative and articulate manner without ruffling other people's feathers.

On all forums on every kind, you will find folks that become known as "trolls" because they take pleasure in creating ongoing arguments that call attention to themselves rather than agreeing to agree to disagree and carrying on with other business.

What I wanted you to realize is that the forum is mainly comprised of people, amateurs and professionals who volunteer their time and efforts to teach, learn and share- it is not a paid service and many folks complain about certain problems that are beyond the control of the administrators, owners and moderators unless the forum rules are seriously breached. So each member has to filter out the nonsense from the good stuff and believe me- the good stuff is in the majority here.

You seemed to have criticized the the pros for spending so much time on the forum- I though that this was kinda challenge to their validity as real pros. Believe me- the ones who stand out are indeed PROFESSIONAL.

Some may be retired or semi-retired, others, like me, are still working but we do! When I started out, there was no Internet and many professionals took out the time to mentor me and helped me to get into the business. I teach because I would like to give back to a profession that has been goo to me by helping others.

If I have annoyed or unintentionally insulted you, please accept my apologies.

Ed

[Ed Shapiro]

Hey Randy! Good question and thanks for your reply.

The point I want to make is that on this and many other photo-forums NOT everyone is a professional photographer. Some of the childish or unprofessional remarks come form professionals and non professionals alike because some of them are basically rude and don't know how to commutate in a friendly, informative and articulate manner without ruffling other people's feathers.

On all forums on every kind, you will find folks that become known as "trolls" because they take pleasure in creating ongoing arguments that call attention to themselves rather than agreeing to agree to disagree and carrying on with other business.

What I wanted you to realize is that the forum is mainly comprised of people, amateurs and professionals who volunteer their time and efforts to teach, learn and share- it is not a paid service and many folks complain about certain problems that are beyond the control of the administrators, owners and moderators unless the forum rules are seriously breached. So each member has to filter out the nonsense from the good stuff and believe me- the good stuff is in the majority here.

You seemed to have criticized the the pros for spending so much time on the forum- I though that this was kinda challenge to their validity as real pros. Believe me- the ones who stand out are indeed PROFESSIONAL.

Some may be retired or semi-retired, others, like me, are still working but we do! When I started out, there was no Internet and many professionals took out the time to mentor me and helped me to get into the business. I teach because I would like to give back to a profession that has been goo to me by helping others.

If I have annoyed or unintentionally insulted you, please accept my apologies.

Ed

[Bobby Deal]

Originally Posted by RV

You make this assumption based off of what again? I don't remember sharing my sales numbers.



Your arrogance makes me chuckle in joy, and I don't mind snide comments but not very becoming of a moderator of these forums. Much like your childish response to in Post 182 to another member enticing then to put their best images up and you will compare to them. That response is screaming immaturity and asking for attention.

I don't care what you think is viable or not, business models vary based on many things including demographics. The Demographics in Lubbock is far different than Miami, Florida or Monterey Ca. A business model for a studio is also different than mine so I can't expect for you to fathom my margin. Lubbock does not compare in the least to either.

Lubbock
Miami
Monterey

If your selling photo books for less then $500 then I can see why you can't accept it.

Let me get this straight. You will shoot and burn a wedding for $500 because the couple cant afford more. You claimed earlier in this thread that this was a business model you believed in and advocated. Now you tell us you are miraculously profitable and sell photo books for $500 or more which your follow up response would lead one to believe. Though the way you stated it in the initial post leads me to believe that for a 20 page book you actually charge $600- $1000 based on a per page cost (which I presume you mean your clients cost not yours) of $30-$50 per page? Really which one is it because now it seems you are claiming to be all things to all client levels. Either you are a budget photographer or you are a high end photographer but I don't know many that manage to run in both circles successfully.

Honestly I am not sure why you come to these forums other then the personal entertainment of inciting flame wars and trolling. You have done nothing to exhibit any effective knowledge of photography or business to me. You scream for substantiation of facts from others but refuse to provide them of your own statements. Don't bother responding I don't care what you say because from this point forward anything you say simply sounds like Charlie Browns Teaches "wha wha wha whaa wha" No business runs at a high 90% profit, it just does not happen even with minimal CODB there is still a cost. Your time alone is a cost and unless you value your time at below minimum wage there is no way you can make your statements add up. First your a part time budget shooter then you are selling books with a manufacturing cost at $500 it all smells of one of the top products of Texas to me.

Now where is that Block button I simply cant read any more from you and remain civil.

[stef@apl]

Originally Posted by Bobby Deal

Now where is that Block button I simply cant read any more from you and remain civil.

Click the person's name in the avatar, go to their profile, and you can block from there.

Unfortunately, the camel doesn't allow you to temporarily unblock someone on a thread, but leave them blocked. You have to completely unblock, then completely block again. btw, I don't have RV blocked (nor intend to), but I agree with what you said about him.

Besides the big list of logical fallacies he makes, here's his argument style (and that of many other trolls you'll find). I've seen republicans and democrats and libertarians use these strategies, but I find it most prevalent with fringe republicans (probably because I call them out more often).

1. Become offended and attack someone ad hominem if they request comment on some falsehood you made or an irrelevant comment they made. Ex: Ed lives in Canada and hates the US military. This somehow attempts to discredit him on photography.
2. LOOK OVER THERE! argument. Do everything you can to ignore the actual argument, and instead concentrate on something irrelevant to help you attack later. This is often followed by number 1, and is an attempt to redirect an obviously losing argument against someone who is more knowledgeable about the subject.
3. If you can't feign being offended, attempt to ridicule a source, instead of addressing the facts from that source. This is extremely common. Ex: Wikipedia? Lol.
4. Create an unwinnable situation for the source of facts, claiming there must be bias, such as "Scientists all have personal biases, and all studies are done by scientists, therefore they're biased and the study cannot be trusted".
5. Subsequently, rely on "studies" done by actual biased organizations.
6. Rely on entertainers for sources of fact.
7. Attempt to harness "outrage" on false or spurious statements (just like certain entertainers do, above). Ex: we're paying college students to have sex.
8. Make a string of factual statements, and conclude (or imply a conclusion) with something false or wholly unsupported. Best done when picking and choosing statements from a study that support you, and ignoring very important ones that disprove you. Ex: AGW is supported by a handful of scientists, while thousands of PhDs disagree with it. This cleverly ignores that 99% of climate scientists agree, while many political scientists and english majors and nuclear engineers have doubts.
9. Make a false statement and claim it's true until it's proven false. When it's disproven, tweak it slightly, and demand each new statement is disproven. Continue placing the burden of disproof on others, and avoid the burden of proof. If this fails, resort to attacking the sources based on bias. Ex: "Second-hand smoke has never been shown to cause cancer" followed by "Small amounts of SHS have never been shown to cause cancer", and so on. If disproven, it would then become "Small amounts of SHS have not been shown to cause cancer in humans", followed by "humans 18-30", "pygmies", etc.
10. Make copious use of straw man and slippery slope arguments. Ex: If gays can marry, we'll soon allow marrying horses.
11. Say it loudly and often, and ignore statements which disprove or clarify. Repeat previous statements taken out of context. Example: "Mark was unprofessional by calling out someone to compare images." This was taken out of the context of the person offering to compare images directly, but somehow it's now Mark's fault for being unprofessional by accepting that challenge. When this was pointed out, RV not only ignored it, but repeated the same claim later.
12. Strongly avoid answering a direct question that will show an earlier falsehood. Ex: "if all your [sic] using is the book cost/price/margin then your math is flawed. You cant base a business's profit margin based on a single product."
13. Only examine the small picture, unless there's a good slippery slope argument to be made. Ignore statistics unless there is a conclusion (poor or otherwise) that supports your argument. Ex: My grandma lived to 102 smoking 2 packs a day.
14. Sow confusion in the reader. Claim there's a big controversy. Ex: "Evolution is only a theory." Yeah? So is gravity.
15. Try to reduce things to a false dichotomy, especially if it's "you must prove you're 100% right, otherwise you're 100% wrong".

These are all see-through logical fallacies, and the faster we recognize them, the faster we can avoid getting trolled.

How many can you recognize in this statement?"

Plants require CO2 to thrive, so CO2 is necessary for life. Our grandchildren will need the food produced by extra CO2, but scientists are driven only from getting more taxpayer money to keep their jobs, and have fabricated this crisis. Tens of thousands of scientists disagree with the IPCC hockey stick graph but only a hundred or so scientists support it. Models show that more CO2 will create food and jobs, but regulating output will reduce jobs and increase taxes. CO2 is a completely natural product of living -- everyone exhales CO2. Now, the government is trying to tell you that you cannot exhale. Not exhaling sounds a lot like Bill Clinton, and the rest of our socialist government."

BTW, if any of that has convinced you that the increasing atmospheric CO2 isn't as bad as thought, you haven't been reading. I used almost all of those fallacies.