Why is it frowned upon to offer a cheaper service?

[Onslow]

Originally Posted by RV

It happens and it take two or more to participate. It is a discussion board and that means there will be some disagreements, agreements, praise, and nit pick suggestions, opinions, or comments. There will be personality conflicts, dialect differences, misunderstandings, and failures to articulate effectively.

This board has it's fair share of opinions and personalities but ganging up on someone based on their strong opinions is basically bullying and anti-social. The real issues that exists are the instigators that take things out of context and or incite the bullying behavior towards other members that might have a opinion or view in the minority.

Either way I think of it as social entertainment first and place educational resource last. Forums are a less than practical way to obtain accurate information as it is impossible to control the information posted. You have a good way to feel out the members and choose your sources as you see fit based on charisma, likability, and compliance. All these traits can also be associated with online predators, sociopaths, and serial killers. so it can be flawed if the process lacks checks and balances. But, everybody has their own practices and methods.

I agree with your first paragraph. That can occur. The measure though of the participants is how its dealt with. He did it first so I can do it as well is a bit childish in my opinion. In the real world we see face to face how a comment was meant. Sitting behind Keyboards with only emoticons is no substitute and often leads to clashes. We should really think a bit more and type a bit less when things start getting heated.

Moderators do their job based on what they see occur in forums. In my experience with forums, they are people who understand the group dynamic of the forum and are in a good position to judge when to step in. When people feel threatened or bullied, they have three options in the forums, they can leave it, they can ignore the bullying behaviour of the individual and sometimes depending on the forum, block them or thirdly, they too can bully back. Thus the bullied becomes a bully themselves.

With your last paragraph, perhaps the problem is that a lot of the people here in my experience are people who come here to learn and grow as a photographer. I know I do. I don't view the forums here as social entertainment, I view them as an important part of my photographic arsenal. As you say, I have a good way to filter my sources based on my criteria. The serial killer, online predators and sociopaths comment can be applied to anyone online including you. We all have our own way of filtering our sources. None are fool proof. They can all be tripped up by the deliberate actions of the devious type of people you mention. I don't however see it as entertainment when provocative comments are made by these sorts of people. Baiting people to provoke reactions is like burning ants with a magnifying glass. Pointless and cruel which shows the mentality of the person involved.

Please understand Ryan, none of these comments are aimed at you or any other person on the Camel. They are general observations from years spent in the online community. And the is what the camel is, a community. We can make the community tight knit and friendly whilst still having disagreements, or we can turn it into Syria or Libya with verbal violence directed at people. I know which one I'd rather live in.

Now, to return to the original topic. I know in the town where I live, there are a lot of facebook photographers. One does a "reasonable" job but the images aren't corrected for color or exposure or cropping. She's the only one I know here who does weddings in the 1-2 thousand mark. The others are offering shoot and burn for a few hundred dollars. Theres nothing wrong with that if the work is reasonable quality. Unfortunately it isn't. I'd love to post some of the examples but I can't and won't. Even the cheapest wedding deserves a basic level of output on the day. I've done a few weddings myself. All of my work is scouted ahead of the big day, Duplicates of my gear or overlaps in capability, Color corrected images on calibrated/profiled equipment. Focus and composition checked and cropped as required. Consistency in color across the shoot. Images in focus, no squinting or odd faces on participants.

It can be done but doing cheap weddings, I know that I generally associate cheap wedding photography with poor service and quality. Thats based in my local area of around 100 mile radius.

Having a DSlr is no guarantee of anything. The only thing that stacks up is the portfolio of the person doing the wedding photography. I have been approached on a few occasions now for reshoots of portions of the day whose weddings were stuffed up by these cheap photographers. Having seen the images, they are generally blurry and with no compositional thought at all. In fact, they are damned ugly photography. I've been asked to just get nice images of the immediate wedding party so at least they have something even if it is faked. This is the trap of the cheap photographer unfortunately. Mind you, even expensive photographers can have off days I suspect. The measure of them is how complaints are dealt with.

[Ernst-Ulrich Schafer]

Excellent post Onslow!! Thanks

[Browncoat]

Originally Posted by RV

Please enlighten us with your insight in how to identify success from non-success. One shoe does not fit all in the world of services but still waiting to hear your response.

Sorry, but I'm not going to even justify this with an answer. It's just a fishing attempt to start trolling again. As was suggested earlier in this thread (and by a moderator I believe), this particular area of the boards is for those either in the business, or those interested in being in it. Since you've made it clear that you are neither, why do you even continue to post here, other than to incite flame wars?



The thing that I like most about this forum is that there are real working pros here, who offer advice and share valuable opinions. Several of them make long, constructive posts, and there is knowledge to be gained from them for those of us looking to earn a living doing photography. It's pretty easy to differentiate those who provide value to this community and those who do not.

[RV]

Fishing , trolling bla bla bla, I simply asked a question about your statement period. Because I go against the grain with a few people I get labeled by the band wagon and apparently that makes me not as or at all successful? Thats a load of BS and I wanted what your stated explained, but I guess if what you say can not be verified then I guess that is it.

Just so you know, as a part time photographer my profit margin is in the High 90% and my photography business supplements my primary salary by 2/5. My methods of advertising brings in 37% of my new customers and the rest are returning and referred customers.

Will I ever be a photographer fully dependent on this trade? I doubt it because I have made a very comfortable living in the IT industry in the past. I have no intentions to struggle in the industry as a full time slave to the ever so evolving industry. I am perfectly happy shooting events, weddings, children, family portraits, and some commercial stuff when I have time.

If that is not a success then apparently I don't know what is... but I am still happy doing things how I am doing them.

[Ed Shapiro]

Moderator Comment.

This is a forum- I define a forum as kind of a round table where everyone can have their say whether it is controversial or not. I have, with other moderators and administrators added a sub- forum that is very specially geared toward professionals. part time professionals and those aspiring to professional photography as a viable and real business. This entire (business) forum, in my opinion, is designed to bring all photographers into the fold of professionalism and for the uninitiated to have a look behind the scenes, so to speak, and see what is going on "on the professional side". Snobbery, eliteism, exclusiveness and secrecy are not the motivation behind this forum and professionals simply and generously donate their time and expertise because they want to help others learn.

So.. In all honesty; when you look behind the scenes of the rel world of professional photography, it is not a perfect place. You will see professionals who are worried about "competition" for amateurs and you will find professionals who couldn't care less about theses issues or non-issues as the case may be. Some pros feel that undercutting prices by non-professionals is a serious problem and there are those who have an established clientele in the high end market and have no issues or fears about the lower priced market. The are some full time pros who engage in price cutting. In the final analyses, we live in a free enterprise society and as long as people do not contravene the consumer protection laws, commit fraud or misrepresent themselves, folks can do what ever the want in business. As far as I am concerned, on a level playing field, it is the survival of the fittest that determines success. The forum can only provide friendly exchange of ideas and tips to make that survival a little easier for the participants here.

As far as "the friendly photo-forum"- this one, is concerned; harsh remarks, verbal combat, excessive argumentativeness, long dragged out arguments based on semantics don't wash here among the population and in many cases contravene the rules and bylaws of the forum itself. There are ongoing complaints to the moderators pertaining to insults, foul language, snide remarks and poor manners. The result is issuing of infractions, warnings, banning and a whole bunch of unpleasant moderator time which would be better spent on creative matters, contests, adding new items to the forum and encouraging good will among the members. How about having fun?

Conversations about firearms, war and the suggestions of threats certainly do not belong here nor do combative discussion about politics or religion.
Long and aggravating arguments insult the intelligence of the membership so the best tactic to gain support for any idea is to state your case and move on, thus allowing other members to make up their own minds about things and chime in if they please not feeling that they are trying to break up a bar fight and going to take an undeserved punch. Why not start a poll if you want to get opinions or gather stats? Y'all have so many facilities, to express your opinions, at you disposal at no charge right here on the Camel, so why resort to unpleasant adversarial relationships?

Can we all shake hands and come out TALKING rather than FIGHTING? Are there not question of a technical, artistic or real business topics that we can tackle instead of THIS?

So,,Y'all- give me you PEACE plan and let this topic scroll of to thread heaven or HELL as the powers that be will decide. I think is is high time to close this thread soon. This kinda stuff scares away folks who want a peaceful forum to work on . Some folks around here are refugees from forums that are/were intrinsically nasty, discouraging and disrespectful. Most of the really bad ones have already become defunct.

PLEASE! Ed

[19Thomas56]

Originally Posted by blackrose89

I've seen quite a few photographers strongly discourage against people who aren't greatly skilled, shooting wedding and such for a cheaper price ($300). But where does that leave the brides/grooms who simply can't afford more. What are they suppose to do?

Ok I completely stand by you need to be 100% honest about your quality (and this is about the ethics/quality part, not really the legalities) and you need to be truthful about what you can deliver. But.... aren't the cheap $300 helping out people who can't afford more? People on here strongly discourage people from shooting cheap or even free weddings. But where does that leave the brides/grooms who physically can't afford an experienced well rounded photographer? By that logic, if it's ethically wrong for someone to shoot a cheap or free wedding and should never be done, you're saying it's better for those who can't afford $3000 for a wedding photographer to be stuck with no photos.

Every industry has some lesser quality service/product for a cheaper price. Look at this example in other industries: I'm sure Mcdonalds is an abomination to real cuisine and those chefs who trained hard to be great cooks. Is the 5 star resturant that serves $50 lean steaks better quality and better for you then a $1 cheeseburger? Of course, but that doesn't make Mcdonalds wrong or unethical for offering a much lesser qaulity product at a much more affordable price. If we only had top qaulity food and no other sources like Mcdonalds,the people who couldn't afford to eat the fine steaks would be stuck and may never be able to afford to go out to eat. Again, Mcdonalds is not doing anything wrong, just offering people who couldn't afford the better quality an option to still get to eat out.
Or what about car dealerships (again if we're going by peopel being honest) Which is better? The car dealership who offers brand new cars with full warranties, or the other dealership who sells 15 year old cars with no warranty for a much much lesser price? Of course the full dealership with brand new cars is better, but again, by having the used car dealerships, although not as good quality, is still offering an option to someone who cannot afford more. Why shouldn't photography offer the same?

Especially in this economy. In this economy I'm sure a good number of brides can't afford a $1500 photographer. So why can't photography have a cheaper option for lesser quality like every other industry does?

I'm not trying to start a debate or sound ignorant, I'm genually curious what you would advise to a bride/groom who couldn't afford a well rounded photographer if their were no cheaper options available??

Blackrose89-

In one sense, your position carries a lot of weight: there IS always a marketplace for budget priced goods, whether it be hamburgers or photography. SO, there will always be a (legitimate) market for $300 wedding photography. In another sense, it doesn't always do the established wedding photographers a lot of credit if they come across a bit heavy handed or even semi-judgmental of those photographers who "shoot and burn" for a fraction of what they themselves charge.

But, as food for thought for yourself as you develop as a photographer: what do you yourself want to get out of photography? I myself have learned that I put in a total of 40 hours on a typical wedding: from pre-wedding consultation, to scouting the venue (if I've not shot there before!), to arriving early to set up; to staying through the better part of the reception, to post-processing images, designing the album, etc, etc. If you do the same and charge $300, then that comes to making $7.50 an hour, BEFORE you account for your equipment costs, mileage, print and album costs, etc. After taking all of that out, you probably will net around $5 an hour for your work. You're better off working at that hamburger joint you referred to in your post!

Ah, but perhaps you have a prosumer camera with a kit lens and no lighting equipment other than the built in flash and you only arrive half an hour before the wedding and leave within an hour of it being over and you don't post-process images at all and simply burn them to a CD and hand them over. Then maybe you only put in six hours on the whole wedding with minimal equipment costs, etc. so you probably end up netting something in the range of $30 an hour. Not bad in today's job economy: not many people can rake in that kind of pay. But--and this is a big but--is the quality of images you're going to produce doing your client a disservice? I believe that there is a high likelihood that they will. Despite the fact that almost all starting photographers assume that weddings are the place to begin, they are actually the MOST difficult of all forms of photography: far harder than studio portraits of families or on-location portraits of seniors: the action is fast paced, there are no do-overs, the variety of lighting scenarios is well nigh on to infinite, and the stress level of the people whose pictures you are taking is at a lifetime high for them. So, one of two things will happen, neither of which will be very satisfying: either $300-a -wedding photographers will continue to take inferior pictures that will not do justice to a once-in-a-lifetime experience, or they will invest in the equipment, training, and expertise to take superior images no matter what, and then be paid only a pittance of what they are worth, if what they charge is merely $300.

So, if you and other photographers want to charge $300 a wedding, I say go for it. I for one do not look down upon you. But, I do think that, after a while, you will either become resentful, burn out, and quit weddings all together, or you will move both your expertise and your prices up. The (legitimate) market for $300 weddings will continue, of course, but maybe other newbie photographers, or hobby photographers, or a kindly uncle or cousin can shoot them!

[Ernst-Ulrich Schafer]

RV, I'm really interested in your 90% profit margin. Could you fill me in on all your costs and what your pricing your work at?

[Ed Shapiro]

Come on folks!

Thomas- all your points are valid as are your questions but it has been all discussed in this thread one way or another. Suffice it to say that there is a client for every photographer and there is a photographer for every photographer. There are enormous price differentials in the market place and all I can say is "buyer beware" and "photographer beware" I have seen wedding celebrations costing 50 grand and higher where a 300 dollar photographer was hired because photography was not a priority for the wedding couple. I have seem modest wedding couples but thousands of dollars with of wedding photography because it is a priority. You can't stereotype everyone- people buy and spend as they wish- sometimes that is ill advised.

You will live longer and healthier if you come to realize that everyone can not be you customer. Some folks will think your prices are too high and others may feel it is too low- believe it or not. You will end up with the clients which you are compatible with in terms of prices and quality. That is the "buyer beware part".

The "photographer beware" part pertains to photographers who simply do not have the level of skills to properly cover a wedding and end up with a devastating lawsuit. We live in a litigious society where everyone is sewing everyone else and a non-performance claim can kill you business and your personal life as well.

Ernst! You are a totally professional guy and an experienced businessman ply you have elegant and classical work. You know as well as I do that maintaining a studio in addition to all the other costs of running you business must be factored into your price structure or you have no profits. Running a non-profit business is fruitless unless you are a charity and even important charities have paid directors to keep things on the right track. We know having a solid business plan encompassing all of our costs, expenses and price structure is needed to insure success.

If RV or anyone else has a magic formula for creating a magnificent profit margin; God bless them, more power to them and let them go in peace. Everyone has their own motivations for doing their photography. One photographer may want to establish himself as an artist and build a business on that platform. Another photographer may just be looking for a few additional dollars. We can't control any of this and even if we could, it would be considered restraint of trade or anti-competition which is illegal in most developed countries- the U.S. and Canada for sure!

All I want to do here is clean up the hostility here before it gets worse. I see the language starting to go south and I don't want to start name calling and that sort of thing to escalate. It is time to agree to disagree. Take out the time to re-read my lat post- if you disagree with it tell me now otherwise let's get on with our photography- YES?


Ed

[Ed Shapiro]

Come on folks!

Thomas- all your points are valid as are your questions but it has been all discussed in this thread one way or another. Suffice it to say that there is a client for every photographer and there is a photographer for every client. There are enormous price differentials in the market place and all I can say is "buyer beware" and "photographer beware" I have seen wedding celebrations costing 50 grand and more where a 300 dollar photographer was hired because photography was not a priority for the wedding couple. I have seen modest wedding couples buy thousands of dollars worth of wedding photography because it is THEIR priority. You can't stereotype everyone- people buy and spend as they wish- sometimes that is ill advised.

You will live longer and healthier if you come to realize that everyone can not be you customer. Some folks will think your prices are too high and others may feel it is too low- believe it or not. You will end up with the clients which you are compatible with in terms of prices and quality. That is the "buyer beware part".

The "photographer beware" part pertains to photographers who simply do not have the level of skills to properly cover a wedding and end up with a devastating lawsuit. We live in a litigious society where everyone is suing everyone else and a non-performance claim can kill your business and your personal life as well.

Ernst! You are a totally professional guy and an experienced businessman plus you have elegant and classical work. You know as well as I do that maintaining a studio in addition to all the other costs of running your business must be factored into your price structure or you have no profits. Running a non-profit business is fruitless unless you are a charity and even important charities have paid directors to keep things on the right track. We know having a solid business plan encompassing all of our costs, expenses and price structure is needed to insure success.

If RV or anyone else has a magic formula for creating a magnificent profit margin; God bless them, more power to them and let them go in peace. Everyone has their own motivations for doing their photography. One photographer may want to establish himself as an artist and build a business on that platform. Another photographer may just be looking for a few additional dollars. We can't control any of this and even if we could, it would be considered restraint of trade or anti-competition which is illegal in most developed countries- the U.S. and Canada for sure!

Everyone- All I want to do here is clean up the hostility at hand before it gets worse. I see the language and attitudes starting to go south and I don't want to allow name calling and that sort of thing to escalate. It is time to agree to disagree. Take out the time to re-read my lat post- if you disagree with it tell me now otherwise let's get on with our photography- YES?


Ed

[Steven G Webb]

Is it curious to anyone but me that the OP isn't participating in the can kicking that's been continuing now for over 22 pages? Why do we beat each other up and argue, especially over semantics when it becomes obvious that the person who could gain the most from participation isn't hanging around?

I sold fireworks for about 30 years. The instructions always read the same: Place on ground, light fuse, get away. I get the feeling these instructions are used often on the forum.

Steve