PhotoCamel - Your Friendly Photo Forum - View Single Post - What a dummy I am...giving model "approval" rights..Rant,...a long one..

JohnPaul · 10-25-2006

Over the weekend, I worked with a lovely model, who has been in a few minor publications, and done some bikini modeling mostly,...

She joined OPM recently in my area, and it's not like we find models who look like her on OPM around here, so I thought I'd send her a little "hello" letter, and asked what her compensation was, since she listed "commercial only"..

Her OPM site looked as though she needed some pictures, IMO the best ones, didn't really flatter her all that much, and it appeared that she was comfortable with nudity, having several implied shots, plus a sheer t-shirt shot as well..

She replied saying that she would be delighted to work with me, and that she normally charges $100.00 for a 4-5 hour shoot,..(massively low)...and if the images are looking good, that could be extended.

I go ahead and book her, and I book an assistant,...and a MUA,...(the MUA canceled within a week of the shoot and I couldn't find a replacement)..and set up my studio for four hours, and got permission to use a certain location for the final set shoot.. I figured that I'd finally submit a bunch of work to a number of places, like "Maxim" type mags..and to a business client who is interested in putting together a girls & guns calendar thingy for a client of his..

Well,.....she arrives, along with her husband.. (she made no mention of this prior to the shoot, but said that she would be coming with her girlfriend.. (I don't like having boyfriends, or husbands there... it just doesn't mix well.......I learned that he was more than just her husband, but her "manager" as well,....& a beginner photographer on top of that..(first red flags))..

They pull out this contract / release, that gives her permission to approve of all images used. (second set of red flags)..

It was presented to me like,....either you sign this, or we are leaving. This was after I had set up, and prepared for the shoot, including ironing outfits, setting up lights, cranking up the heat in the studio, I have an assistant in route, and I have booked this model, not any other model, for the first time in three months because I have been too darn busy to shootthese days, and I don't know when I'll be able to do a shoot like this again.....In addition, I wanted her to trust me, so we could get some great stuff,....so I signed it..

That will be the very last time I will ever do that again..

This is what happened... We shoot,....as we are shooting, the pics are looking hotter than ever!! We are getting some great stuff!! She is all excited about the images,......however, we only shot for 4 hours, because she made plans to do something afterwards, so, we didn't go to the location in the end... oh well... we are talking about shooting again real soon..

I take everyone out to eat at the classy Mexican restaurant across the street, and drop 70 bucks on that.. in addition to paying her $100.00 fee, which she acknowledged on MY release form.

While we were dining, I brought along my camera, and we viewed the images, while waiting for our food, and after eating, and then we went back to my studio,....by this time, the proofs CD was ready, and I burned her a CD of the proofs, sized to 12 level jpgs, at 450 pixels high of every single image, including the lighting tests..etc..

Next day, I wake up and I go over the images, and I edit several that I liked..and sent them her way.

She liked one of them.

She later sends me a zip file of the 40 images she wants me to edit.. I normally would do between 10-20 for a shoot like this tops, but she believes that we shot 915 images because of the file number on the last image... but doesn't take notice that we only shotfewer than 700 images because the image counter on the 5D is continuous, and began somewhere in the 200's..

Of those images she sent me, was an image that was all black. I replied,...not in the most professional way, by asking "WTF are you sure of that file number..?". She selected a flash misfire, and liked the very very faint image of her that was exposed at 1/125ths at f8 100iso by my modeling lamps.. Yep, she claimed that she could clearly see it. (another red flag)... I thought she was nuts..

Then, we get into an argument over the number of images she wants edited..and ......she just can't select any fewer on her end. Heck, there were several that I liked that I personally thought were much stronger images, but those are the ones she wanted.. Ok... what ever. I sent one that I liked, edited, that was IMPO, a very strong image of her, looking very classy, and she replied with....basically telling me that the image doesn't do anything for her and there were better ones than that one......(that was a big fat red flag!)..

Now they want a copy of the high res edited files from me.....previously never mentioned by them, but mentioned by me that I don't release those to just anybody because of previous bad experiences, besides, I paid her, right..? I explained this to her before the shoot, and at the restaurant, and again on the phone with her husband, ..(I'll get to that in a sec)..and then they compare me to every other photographer they've worked with, and claimed that all of them have given her the original raw files, and gave her permission to approve of which ones can be used.. (hmmm....things are changing ever so slightly now......another red flag)... I see on her official modeling site, that she has worked with IMO, a number of beginner type photographers....and the images were'nt IMO, professionally edited.. She displays two photos that are edited using "glowing edges",...a fun little special effect in photoshop that gets old after someone has done it once.. ...well,....on her professional portfolio, she has two of those, along with a bunch of poorly composed, IMO, unflattering looking images, that don't exactly tell me that she has a lot of experience..

Then, she quotes something that a professional bikini model friend of her's supposedly told her,....her friend's name has been around the web for some time,.. Anyways, she claims that she shoves an approval in the faces of Hawaiian Tropic photographers, gets paid for her rate, and gets all raw files, to choose from, plus the high res tiffs, plus web sized images, and if this "little Wisconsin photographer" doesn't give you all that, she would never do business with me.. I have serious doubts about that, after personally knowing several HT models.. My understanding is that they get paid,...and they may not see anything else..but they get paid,...and it's not $20-25 bucks an hour either,...more like 1,200/day..

So, I "edited" the "black" image, & sized it to 9x12, and send it to her,.... and instead of signing it with my name on it, I signed it .."This is a fucking joke..." That didn't go over too well with her husband, who called me up, screaming at me, noting how unprofessional and tacky that looked, ......which I don't really disagree on,...but I mentioned that it was more tung and cheek...meant as a "ha ha this is silly".. (I hope I never have to hear from him again..).. Then I reminded them that I paid her her "rate"... His reply to that was,..."one hundred bucks doesn't mean shit. I wipe my ass with a hundred bucks all the time"... I mentioned that if he uses 100 dollar toilet paper, that he ought to have his wife bump up her modeling rate a bit.. Oh,...and he claims that she never compared me to other photographers, because HE wrote the replies himself, in HER name!!

Then his wife/ the model calls me, to tell me how unprofessional I am being, and that I don't have any real experience shooting real models....and that it's customary for them (apparently, professional models) to hold photographers hostage..(my words, not exactly their's,..but basically that was what I got from it)..

Ok.... I agree to be civil,...and they began telling me that their friend bikini pro model sends in "1600mega pixel images to magazines for photo submitions".. Hmm...that doesn't sound right to me.... Then they later said that they meant 1600 pixels high by what ever wide.. Oh,... so,.. while on the phone, I sized an image to 1600 pixels high... this "high res image" of their's was smaller than a 4x6" print at 300ppi resolution.... then they said that they meant "16,000 pixels high".. Oh sure,....I'm sure every model e-mails nearly 500mg files to magazines and agencies for submissions all the time... LMAO!!

Oh brother,....well, I decided to edit all 40 selected images, to keep the peace, and then I spent the next 12hours, removing every single freckle, every single line..and other junk...(at her request in order for her to approve them)..and the normal stuff I do,......and I send them to her in the e-mail 5 at a time... They are all sized to 12" high,...normally either 8x12, or 9x12 at 72ppi, ....and they now send me an e-mail, stating that while I was on the phone with them, "I said I would give them the high res files", which I did not, nor would I ever do that, but agreed to putting the edited images for the WWW on a CD to have all in one place for submissions... (I guess they are too poor to burn their own CD..?) Now they are talking DVD with high res images.... and then they sent me a list of "approved images".. They selected 20 of the 41 images..(they added one more later on).. & that is apparently final. There will be no more images approved. Even if I really liked something, they won't approve it... Oh, and the ones that they approved of, they have more restrictions, and further approvals,........lets say I want to print one of those images on my comp cards...or in a self promo flier....or a display in my studio, I have to get her permission to do so, & if she says "no", I am out of luck..

However, she apparently believes that she can do what ever she wants with them.

She told me that she needs that high res images for a magazine submission, and that they only accept high res files.. I asked her which magazine is it that.... her reply was to belittle me... bla bla bla.....you aren't such a professional photographer if you didn't know that.... bla bla bla... and never answered me... Then I asked again, and informed her that I have had models contact me many times for contest submission photos..etc.. Then she claimed that Maxim wanted a high res file from her... I then copied and pasted their on line rules for the previous contest submissions,...and they said that the model is allowed up to 3 images, e-mailed to them, of no larger than 3 mgs each.. High res..? LOL!! <y web sized images are just fine for that...

Oh,.....today,.....I learned that they are selling prints and other crap from their website, and she is even asking for "donations" to help out her modeling "career".. The biggest red flag of them all pops up!!!! This red flag is so big, in order to transport it., it must be trucked on an over sized load flatbed, with mini red flags all around it!!

**** her!

The images......I don't even want to look at them on my monitor any longer......I'm so sick, and mad at her, and at myself for being a "nice guy"... I just got ****** up my *** by them!!

Never again.

In her original reply to me after I contacted her asking to discuss compensation, and her giving me her rates, she said that she just wanted a copy of all the images taken, and was happy with the proofs idea, and she claimed that she just wanted them for her records. ....My how things change...

JP

10-25-2006	#1 (permalink)
JohnPaul Vicuna Posts: 105 CamelKarma: 13 Gallery \| Blog	What a dummy I am...giving model "approval" rights..Rant,...a long one.. Over the weekend, I worked with a lovely model, who has been in a few minor publications, and done some bikini modeling mostly,... She joined OPM recently in my area, and it's not like we find models who look like her on OPM around here, so I thought I'd send her a little "hello" letter, and asked what her compensation was, since she listed "commercial only".. Her OPM site looked as though she needed some pictures, IMO the best ones, didn't really flatter her all that much, and it appeared that she was comfortable with nudity, having several implied shots, plus a sheer t-shirt shot as well.. She replied saying that she would be delighted to work with me, and that she normally charges $100.00 for a 4-5 hour shoot,..(massively low)...and if the images are looking good, that could be extended. I go ahead and book her, and I book an assistant,...and a MUA,...(the MUA canceled within a week of the shoot and I couldn't find a replacement)..and set up my studio for four hours, and got permission to use a certain location for the final set shoot.. I figured that I'd finally submit a bunch of work to a number of places, like "Maxim" type mags..and to a business client who is interested in putting together a girls & guns calendar thingy for a client of his.. Well,.....she arrives, along with her husband.. (she made no mention of this prior to the shoot, but said that she would be coming with her girlfriend.. (I don't like having boyfriends, or husbands there... it just doesn't mix well.......I learned that he was more than just her husband, but her "manager" as well,....& a beginner photographer on top of that..(first red flags)).. They pull out this contract / release, that gives her permission to approve of all images used. (second set of red flags).. It was presented to me like,....either you sign this, or we are leaving. This was after I had set up, and prepared for the shoot, including ironing outfits, setting up lights, cranking up the heat in the studio, I have an assistant in route, and I have booked this model, not any other model, for the first time in three months because I have been too darn busy to shootthese days, and I don't know when I'll be able to do a shoot like this again.....In addition, I wanted her to trust me, so we could get some great stuff,....so I signed it.. That will be the very last time I will ever do that again.. This is what happened... We shoot,....as we are shooting, the pics are looking hotter than ever!! We are getting some great stuff!! She is all excited about the images,......however, we only shot for 4 hours, because she made plans to do something afterwards, so, we didn't go to the location in the end... oh well... we are talking about shooting again real soon.. I take everyone out to eat at the classy Mexican restaurant across the street, and drop 70 bucks on that.. in addition to paying her $100.00 fee, which she acknowledged on MY release form. While we were dining, I brought along my camera, and we viewed the images, while waiting for our food, and after eating, and then we went back to my studio,....by this time, the proofs CD was ready, and I burned her a CD of the proofs, sized to 12 level jpgs, at 450 pixels high of every single image, including the lighting tests..etc.. Next day, I wake up and I go over the images, and I edit several that I liked..and sent them her way. She liked one of them. She later sends me a zip file of the 40 images she wants me to edit.. I normally would do between 10-20 for a shoot like this tops, but she believes that we shot 915 images because of the file number on the last image... but doesn't take notice that we only shotfewer than 700 images because the image counter on the 5D is continuous, and began somewhere in the 200's.. Of those images she sent me, was an image that was all black. I replied,...not in the most professional way, by asking "WTF are you sure of that file number..?". She selected a flash misfire, and liked the very very faint image of her that was exposed at 1/125ths at f8 100iso by my modeling lamps.. Yep, she claimed that she could clearly see it. (another red flag)... I thought she was nuts.. Then, we get into an argument over the number of images she wants edited..and ......she just can't select any fewer on her end. Heck, there were several that I liked that I personally thought were much stronger images, but those are the ones she wanted.. Ok... what ever. I sent one that I liked, edited, that was IMPO, a very strong image of her, looking very classy, and she replied with....basically telling me that the image doesn't do anything for her and there were better ones than that one......(that was a big fat red flag!).. Now they want a copy of the high res edited files from me.....previously never mentioned by them, but mentioned by me that I don't release those to just anybody because of previous bad experiences, besides, I paid her, right..? I explained this to her before the shoot, and at the restaurant, and again on the phone with her husband, ..(I'll get to that in a sec)..and then they compare me to every other photographer they've worked with, and claimed that all of them have given her the original raw files, and gave her permission to approve of which ones can be used.. (hmmm....things are changing ever so slightly now......another red flag)... I see on her official modeling site, that she has worked with IMO, a number of beginner type photographers....and the images were'nt IMO, professionally edited.. She displays two photos that are edited using "glowing edges",...a fun little special effect in photoshop that gets old after someone has done it once.. ...well,....on her professional portfolio, she has two of those, along with a bunch of poorly composed, IMO, unflattering looking images, that don't exactly tell me that she has a lot of experience.. Then, she quotes something that a professional bikini model friend of her's supposedly told her,....her friend's name has been around the web for some time,.. Anyways, she claims that she shoves an approval in the faces of Hawaiian Tropic photographers, gets paid for her rate, and gets all raw files, to choose from, plus the high res tiffs, plus web sized images, and if this "little Wisconsin photographer" doesn't give you all that, she would never do business with me.. I have serious doubts about that, after personally knowing several HT models.. My understanding is that they get paid,...and they may not see anything else..but they get paid,...and it's not $20-25 bucks an hour either,...more like 1,200/day.. So, I "edited" the "black" image, & sized it to 9x12, and send it to her,.... and instead of signing it with my name on it, I signed it .."This is a fucking joke..." That didn't go over too well with her husband, who called me up, screaming at me, noting how unprofessional and tacky that looked, ......which I don't really disagree on,...but I mentioned that it was more tung and cheek...meant as a "ha ha this is silly".. (I hope I never have to hear from him again..).. Then I reminded them that I paid her her "rate"... His reply to that was,..."one hundred bucks doesn't mean shit. I wipe my ass with a hundred bucks all the time"... I mentioned that if he uses 100 dollar toilet paper, that he ought to have his wife bump up her modeling rate a bit.. Oh,...and he claims that she never compared me to other photographers, because HE wrote the replies himself, in HER name!! Then his wife/ the model calls me, to tell me how unprofessional I am being, and that I don't have any real experience shooting real models....and that it's customary for them (apparently, professional models) to hold photographers hostage..(my words, not exactly their's,..but basically that was what I got from it).. Ok.... I agree to be civil,...and they began telling me that their friend bikini pro model sends in "1600mega pixel images to magazines for photo submitions".. Hmm...that doesn't sound right to me.... Then they later said that they meant 1600 pixels high by what ever wide.. Oh,... so,.. while on the phone, I sized an image to 1600 pixels high... this "high res image" of their's was smaller than a 4x6" print at 300ppi resolution.... then they said that they meant "16,000 pixels high".. Oh sure,....I'm sure every model e-mails nearly 500mg files to magazines and agencies for submissions all the time... LMAO!! Oh brother,....well, I decided to edit all 40 selected images, to keep the peace, and then I spent the next 12hours, removing every single freckle, every single line..and other junk...(at her request in order for her to approve them)..and the normal stuff I do,......and I send them to her in the e-mail 5 at a time... They are all sized to 12" high,...normally either 8x12, or 9x12 at 72ppi, ....and they now send me an e-mail, stating that while I was on the phone with them, "I said I would give them the high res files", which I did not, nor would I ever do that, but agreed to putting the edited images for the WWW on a CD to have all in one place for submissions... (I guess they are too poor to burn their own CD..?) Now they are talking DVD with high res images.... and then they sent me a list of "approved images".. They selected 20 of the 41 images..(they added one more later on).. & that is apparently final. There will be no more images approved. Even if I really liked something, they won't approve it... Oh, and the ones that they approved of, they have more restrictions, and further approvals,........lets say I want to print one of those images on my comp cards...or in a self promo flier....or a display in my studio, I have to get her permission to do so, & if she says "no", I am out of luck.. However, she apparently believes that she can do what ever she wants with them. She told me that she needs that high res images for a magazine submission, and that they only accept high res files.. I asked her which magazine is it that.... her reply was to belittle me... bla bla bla.....you aren't such a professional photographer if you didn't know that.... bla bla bla... and never answered me... Then I asked again, and informed her that I have had models contact me many times for contest submission photos..etc.. Then she claimed that Maxim wanted a high res file from her... I then copied and pasted their on line rules for the previous contest submissions,...and they said that the model is allowed up to 3 images, e-mailed to them, of no larger than 3 mgs each.. High res..? LOL!! <y web sized images are just fine for that... Oh,.....today,.....I learned that they are selling prints and other crap from their website, and she is even asking for "donations" to help out her modeling "career".. The biggest red flag of them all pops up!!!! This red flag is so big, in order to transport it., it must be trucked on an over sized load flatbed, with mini red flags all around it!! ** her! The images......I don't even want to look at them on my monitor any longer......I'm so sick, and mad at her, and at myself for being a "nice guy"... I just got ** up my * by them!! Never again. In her original reply to me after I contacted her asking to discuss compensation, and her giving me her rates, she said that she just wanted a copy of all the images taken, and was happy with the proofs idea, and she claimed that she just wanted them for her records. ....My how things change... JP __________________ Members don't see ads in threads. 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